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This You Have to See

avoiceformen

December 2, 2010

4 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.avoiceformen.com/2010/12/02/this-you-have-to-see/

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Post Information

Title	This You Have to See
Author	avoiceformen
Upvotes	4
Comments	14
Date	December 2, 2010 7:24 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/eeylr/this_you_have_to_see/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-you-have-to-see.1045518 https://theredarchive.com/post/1045518

Comments

[–]leparsdon 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]DownSoFar -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]leparsdon 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]DownSoFar -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Arresting gropers is a fundamentally ineffective and intractable solution. Have you seen what a crowded train looks like in Japan or India? Are you going to line up all the passengers in a wagon so that victims can attempt to identify an essentially anonymous and unidentifiable offender? Is the cost in man-hours worth it? In rupees? Would the average police officer in a rural area even take an arrest order for a train groping seriously? Giving women a wagon where they can be almost assured safety seems much more effective, not to mention cost-effective. Is it an inconvenience not being able to enter the woman-only wagon if it's less crowded? Yes. Is the inconvenience a fair price? Yes. Does that mean that a women-only wagon is the ideal solution? No. The ideal solution would be for there not to be a groping problem on crowded trains.

I like how you frame it as if "now there is an assault problem on the train". Isn't groping assault?

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Ok, then, use your own logic as presented here. If groping is an assault, and it is justification for sexual segregation, then men now have a call to action to demand their own train cars, in order to keep them safe from the women, who must now be treated with the assumption of criminality, just like all the men are being treated.

Nobody ever said police work deters much crime. And of course the ideal solution to that would be if there were no crime, but c'mon, let's at least try to keep it real.

The difficulty of micromanaging human behavior is not to be taken as a license to criminalize entire portions of society, except where it concerns oh so sacred women.

I have seen lots of rationale similar to yours. In the past it was used to justify separate water fountains for blacks and whites, separate store entrances (the ones that blacks could go in to); separate everything, for the most part. Much of it was justified by pointing to the actions of a small minority of people.

Same bigots, different day.

But your idea about being cost effective is a new one on me. COST EFFECTIVE? Good lord.

Also, women could just simply take responsibility for their own safety. I can tell you that anyone puts their unwanted hands on me, they will have a problem, and quickly. There are all kinds of equalizing technology available for weaker individuals to protect themselves from assault. All they have to do is accept that it is their job to do so. Calling in state thugs to allow further criminal behavior, as was clearly seen in that video is not the solution.

But of course that is the path you put people on when you practice the scourge of segregation.

Right now India, a culture known for class discrimination and bigotry is now upping the ante. In South Korea they have started "women only" parking spots, with public funds, mind you.

It is the new age of gender elitism and bigotry. And it in part explains why we have a growing men's rights movement.

This sickness has to end.

[–]DownSoFar 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

If groping is an assault, and it is justification for sexual segregation, then men now have a call to action to demand their own train cars

No, this does not follow. The context and content of the actions matter. Do you really not see a difference in context, at least, between these situations?

You are the one who claimed that arresting gropers would be preferable to keeping the pool of victims away from crime. I only pointed out how ludicrous such a claim is. Your proposal does nothing, in terms of human welfare. In fact, as the cost-benefit analysis shows, it may even be counterproductive.

Also, women could just simply take responsibility for their own safety. I can tell you that anyone puts their unwanted hands on me, they will have a problem, and quickly.

You are clearly not familiar with a crowded train wagon. How would you propose to do that, when pressed in place by the crush of other bodies?

There are all kinds of equalizing technology available for weaker individuals to protect themselves from assault. All they have to do is accept that it is their job to do so. Calling in state thugs to allow further criminal behavior, as was clearly seen in that video is not the solution.

And now here you go projecting North American middle-class means and values on Indians. Did it cross your mind that India might be different from the United States, at any point in your little screed? Obviously not.

I'm truly entertained by your rants likening this to criminalization, racial segregation, and disease. Ignoring for a moment the way criminals in India are actually treated, that de jure racial segregation resulted from the failures of Reconstruction, or that the fact that likening your political opposition to a disease is the crassest and most base way to dehumanize your opponents, the idea of you getting so worked up as to find this necessary amuses me.

[–]BolshevikMuppet 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheEnlightener -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]BolshevikMuppet 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BolshevikMuppet1 point 15 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'd give that statement of yours more credence if every argument we have ever voiced on this forum hadn't eventually boiled down to you saying something akin to:

"And what the hell are you adding to the debate? A thick headed, myopic admonishment for a man, in his most open and brutally honest state, to get "real?""

"I don't need to prove what I've been saying, because you've yet to disprove it. You haven't shown a study saying that the moon isn't made of cheese, so I don't need to quote one saying it is. Since I, and a lot of people I know, all believe the moon is made of cheese, it's true because it reflects our experiences."

Which is usually also a misrepresentation of my points, and an emotional, visceral, and personal, attack on me. And, of course, you rarely if ever get around to responding to any real logical or factual claims.

For instance (and these below are taken directly from posts you've made, with no alterations whatsoever):

"I don't need any studies to regard sensible observations as valid, even if it leads me to the conclusion that women, on the whole, are less prone to personal accountability than men."

"there is absolutely no burden on me or the author of that piece to prove anything. It is simply up to the reader to determine if the position fits with his (or her) personal experience."

"Snipe at them all you want for being "wrong," but they are in fact not wrong if their personal history and collective experience bears it out."

"I spent two decades counseling people of both sexes with alcohol and drug problems. It was my consistent observation over that period of time that women struggled much more than men with the personal accountability expected of them in treatment milieus. It was also the same, near universal observation of my peers."

"Studies. Pshah!!"

All of that about an article claiming (as a "truth", mind you) that women use sex to manipulate and control men.

Want more? You got it.

"I am sure you have heard the expression that men use love to get sex and women use sex to get love. It is rooted in truth, whether women enjoy sex or not" (you still never gave any evidence for this, by the way, and I continue to wait patiently but in vain for it).

"Your demanding something as vapid as scientific proof of how all women treat all men is just plain stupid." (scientific proof is apparently vapid.)

"personally, almost all the women I have ever known take offense" (did you happen to read the lovely post about logical fallacies on this subreddit?)

"EVERYTHING in human psychology is speculation, nimrod." (I won't even make the scientologist joke)

"I am not going to dismiss what is happening across the entirety of civilization because a few people at reddit disagree."

"the author is directly tying in childhood fantasies and dreams, which all human beings carry with them either consciously or unconsciously. And whether you are aware of it or not, much of that forms attitudes, beliefs, and even emotional states that carry through for life." (I wait with bated breath for those citations, mate)

"It's not stereotyping, it's reality"

Phew. That seems like enough.

I call you irrational because you fail to employ rational debate nor respond to it in kind whenever you discuss these issues. You use rhetoric and emotion as substitute for reason. That is irrational using any definition of the word.

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Needless to say you are missing some key aspects of this situation., e.g. presumed innocence, rights to equal treatment under the law and the right to be free from criminal assaults.

There are a good many Indians protesting what is going on there, for the same reasons I am, so I am not projecting anything on anyone.

Be amused all you want. Bigots are often amused at their own sick thinking. I am sure you are hit with jokes about blacks and men as well.

But the bottom line here is that you are justifying segregation based on suspicion, and assault and state thuggery for defying it, using nothing more than logistics and convenience as your rationale.

That makes you a scumbag, and I don't even need to rant or get worked up to point it out. I can do the same thing with roaches in a dirty kitchen, easy as pie and no hard feelings to the roaches.