personal opinion

DoorChansDoorhole · 2021-10-27T20:09:04+00:00

Sigh. I'll try to engage in a civil manner.

It's not a competition of who has it worse, though some people want to make it into that. It's about pointing the double standards and the ways in which it affects people differently.

For example, this notion that male rape is something that shouldn't be adressed or cared for atm plays a role into men not wanting to speak up about this. Women can admit to predatory behavior and it's not considered predatory because men are expected to be sexual all the time and women are not expected to be perverts.

Why are we talking about that here? Well because it's a sub about Men's Rights. Women have plenty of spaces to talk about female rapes including all the most popular social media, articles are relentlessly being written about this on newspapers, it's a major talking point in many elections around the world. Men's rapes are just a little footnote at the end.

One of the problems I have with feminism is this attitude that they can admit that, yeah, society harms men too, but only in the ways we're allowing you to feel harmed by. You feel male stoicism damages your mental health and you want to cry more freely? YES, YES, YES, TALK ABOUT THAT! We love boys with feelings! You feel like being a male victim of sexual abuse puts you in a more vulnerable position? Hmmm ok yeah but don't talk about that, this is about women's rapes so be a man, eat your feelings, stay quiet about it and let women complain about having to stay quiet about being raped. If women can empathize with men's issues, they are acceptable. If not, it's just misogyny and terrorism.

ShiningLight_2 · 2021-10-27T19:50:04+00:00

Haha, what? Men’s right can be focused on as well? It's like you're giving out an ultimatum. Also, we talk about men being raped because it virtually gets no media attention, everybody turns a blind eye, and every issue today is a ‘women’s issue.’ Men's problems are practically ignored today.

And according to you, the whole reason for /r/MensRights’s existence is because men can't handle that they're being dealt with the same as women? Do you hear how close-minded you are?

Also, I disagree that women’s life is more difficult than men's. Get out of your bubble to actually understand the other party’s thought.

AppleJuicePro · 2021-10-27T19:54:07+00:00

Oooh that's us told!

Hey! Hey guys? Yeah, you know this "Men's Rights" thing? Yeah? Yeah, we're shuttin' it down. Yeah, no I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah I know, sucks I know, but u/1emonhazelnut has just told us we're big babies and that we have no right to complain. No, no, I understand but that's how it is. Someone complained on Reddit so, yeah. Maybe we should all go to r/ Feminism to hear how bad we are and our lives are meaningless. Or something.

Punder_man · 2021-10-27T20:54:36+00:00

Wait wait wait!
Isn't it feminists who claim "Equality isn't a zero sum game"? and yet based on their actions its quite clear that they want to sweep any and all issues facing men under the rug because they don't want society to begin thinking that Men MIGHT just be human too and might not have it as easy as feminist claim we do?

Also.. I'm pretty sure it's feminists who claim "Feminism is for men too!!" but once again.. the actions of feminism prove that statement to be a lie. As it's quite clear that feminism does not care at all about issues that face men and in fact will do everything in it's power to shut us down from addressing these issues because don't you know: "Men are killing themselves more than women? = Women more affected" apparently..

Finally, Two wrong's do not make a right.. "Oh women were oppressed in the past therefore we need to discriminate against men NOW to even the scales.. (Even though the majority of men today have done nothing to oppress women)

life is not fair. mens rights can be focused on as well, but women's
rights need to be addressed first because they have had more suffrage
for longer.

Is anyone else getting an Animal Farm vibe from that quote? "Men's issues are important.. but Women's issues are more important" sort of thing?

bufedad · 2021-10-27T22:16:46+00:00

You didn't post this because you were big on truth and facts, but we'll try anyway.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years.

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i0j2g9/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i6sdli/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iavcnv/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

And it isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

Flat_Eric_1200 · 2021-10-27T22:30:50+00:00

Are you talking about the millions of women that have died from being conscription in war? Oh yeah, women sat safe at home.

goingoverthatplace · 2021-10-27T21:01:47+00:00

No the children's rights need to be put first and infanticide law needs to be abolished and baby killers need to be in prison for as long as other murderers if things are to go the way of putting the childrens rights first.

bufedad · 2021-10-27T22:17:35+00:00

women's rights need to be addressed first

Tell me which rights women in the first world don't have?

iainmf · 2021-10-27T22:53:36+00:00

men's rights can be focused on as well, but women's rights need to be addressed first because they have had more suffrage for longer.

They are not independent things that can be addressed one after the other.

For example, the New Zealand family violence death review committee looked at the life paths of men who ended up killing their partners. Nearly all of those men sort help from social services or other agencies and did not get the help they needed.

Caring about men better means better outcomes for women as well.

YesterdayFit123 · 2021-10-27T19:40:57+00:00

who hurt you sweetie? ;)

AutoModerator · 2021-10-27T19:40:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Punder_man · 2021-10-27T23:22:22+00:00

For anyone going though the comments, don't bother commenting.. The OP clearly came here in bad faith and has no intention on arguing any of their points.
Look for my comment further up to see how the OP simply responds with glib one - two sentence replies with no intention on answering any questions posed to them.

Do yourself a favor and down vote this thread and don't bother commenting..

Title	personal opinion
Author	1emonhazelnut
Upvotes	0
Comments	46
Date	October 27, 2021 7:35 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qh4non/personal_opinion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/personal-opinion.1081485 https://theredarchive.com/post/1081485

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