Liberal feminism misunderstands women by ignoring sexual difference: panel at Harvard

[–]wanderlust_12 19 points20 points21 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sininenn 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rabel111 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Professional-You2968 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Minute_Ad_1494 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Azihayya -28 points-27 points-26 points 3 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Angryasfk 15 points16 points17 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rabel111 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[+]Azihayya -8 points-7 points-6 points 3 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

TERF is a 'trans exclusionary radical feminist' and you'll find a lot of 'fourth wave women' agree with the TERF narrative, which is a movement that many women proscribing a tradcon view of women have rallied behind lately. Feminists as a whole largely reject 'fourth wave women'. Mainstream feminists are actually pretty awesome, and it's a huge shame that so many men on this forum have pulled the wool over their own eyes to strawman feminists in order to lay the blame for all of their problems onto them. The truth is that, if MRAs were honest about what their grievances are, that there would be a ton of overlap with what feminists believe and what MRAs hypothetically, ideally, would believe on a range topics from circumcision to the draft to retributive justice--the reality is that MRAs are highly reactionary and that the anti-feminism espoused on this board is lightly veiled anti-women rhetoric more broadly.

[–]rabel111 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]No-Ad-5825 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[+]Azihayya -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't call myself a "white knight"; I just sympathize with feminists and have my own conflicts with the views that many MRAs hold. Nobody is denying that there are some nasty feminists out there--feminists themselves have had major conflicts with other self-proclaimed feminists. What MRAs don't understand and have never acknowledged is that most feminists don't agree with radical feminists, TERFs, fourth wave women, etc--in fact, most feminists would probably share ideals that have massive overlap with MRAs, if MRAs were being honest about their goals--but finding middle ground with feminists is completely antithetical to the values of MRAs, when the movement isn't actually about getting rid of harmful stereotypes that men experience, or by making social progress on matters that should fundamentally matter to MRAs, like circumcision, the male draft, retributive justice, etc--it's about dismantling feminism; a strawman of feminism, to be specific.

I actually want to see the men's rights movement mature, and I have as much right to speak my mind as any of the rest of you--and if you disagree, then you can go petition the mods to censor me.

[–]No-Ad-5825 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

No they don't I'm going to stop you there really quickly. Issues like DV and SA are still held as a gendered issues by feminists. Intactivists that are working with MRAs constantly have done more than you care to admit. Being anti feminist is a huge part of the MRM but that is because they consistently have been exasperated pre existing issues they. They harassed Murray A Struass and Suzzane K Steinmeitz two people who were the foremost researchers into family violence and their research showed that men get abused. You also took the issue of male SA in this post and downplayed because it is not as bad as women's https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/wxx7mb/excop_and_prison_abolitionist_talks_about_consent/ (your post in question). Where you tried expertly turned a space made around discussing men's issues purely to how women are effected and tried to argue that we should have some sort of accountability. You can not seriously talk about stereotypes when you defend stereotypes that feminists rather not address.

[+]Azihayya -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I think that men taking accountability for ourselves as a gender group, and acknowledging that men abuse at a higher rate, and with a more severe impact, is a boon to the men's rights movement, in contrast to men denying that there's any disparity at all, or when MRAs make claims such as that patriarchy is a myth etc, which only discredit the movement. The CDC data that we have is the best data on the subject that there is, and it clearly shows that women experience victimization more commonly. Rather than sweeping that under the rug, we could actually share a lot in common with feminists, who typically have a more sensitive perspective on the issue than your typical man does.

If we're serious about this movement, then it would be much more wise for us to push back against the unhealthy beliefs that are dominating men's spaces, typically referred to as 'the manosphere', and trying to bring over every day normal guys into a movement that expresses itself outwardly in a healthy manner. As it is, the men's rights movement is incredibly unhealthy, and the worst thing about it is its obsessive fixation on dismantling feminism, in place of finding a strong common ground with feminists, who are generally very reasonable people that share many of our positive ideals.

[–]No-Ad-5825 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

The strong common ground you want us to find with feminists is that men are majority abusers and wee should hold them accountable you want men to be treated as a monolith not only are you factually wrong about men being more abusive but you also showed me that you are not interested in men's issues you are interested in how men could help women. https://sci-hub.se/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-013-9194-1 a collection of 270 studies and meta analysis that show women are just as abusive in relationships as men. Another study that shows women initiate the majority of violence on men and other women https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020 (study is published by the CDC)

A collection of studies that show that women's own violence is the biggest predictor of their own victimization https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178903000557 So not only are you wrong about men being more abusive you are just wrong in general about who needs to hold who to account feminism is an idealogical group being a man isnt an idealogical group in no way am i responsible for the actions of another man for simply being man myself you are advocating for that however.

Also lets talk about the 130 feminists orgs signing a letter of support https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/culture/story/130-feminist-groups-sign-open-letter-amber-heard-93432333 where is the accountability there?

Or better yet something more recent lets talk about how another women's orgs decided to shelter in Jordan Worth as a victim https://virtualtcslondonmarathon.enthuse.com/pf/jordan-worth you know the same woman who had a documentary made on her for being the abuser? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz9CVFKRK6s tell me where is the accountability i see non on the behalf of feminists

You want men who aren't an ideological group to hold each other accountable as if we are all potential abusers (even though that is wrong) to then not address how feminist who are an ideological group that helps perpetuate violence against men and lies about its nature as positive people and reasonable people. You are such a piece of shit.

[+]Azihayya -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Being a Men's Rights Activist is as much an ideological group as feminism is, and it sounds to me like you actually want to see feminists holding women accountable. What I want is for the MRA movement to accept accountability, in the sense that we're able to acknowledge the historical reality of patriarchy, and to acknowledge that men both have more power in civilization and perpetuate more violence. (Men, for example, perpetuate sexual violence more than twice as often as women.)I've taken some time to look through several of the sources you've supplied, and first off, I'll say that I think that data is important. The problem that I have is the way in which MRAs prop up the most demonizing statistics they can, often erroneous or misleading stories and statistics, while ignoring absolutely everything that doesn't fit their narrative--and they do this knowing that the guys who frequent these forums are likely to latch onto these narratives and run with them without even fact checking them. The fact is that if you post something negative feminist, or even negative women, here, that you're likely to get hundreds of upvotes, even if you're empirically or factually wrong.So, the main statistic here that you want to talk about is the rate of domestic abuse perpetrated by males or females; there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest that, at least in the United States, that women engage in physical violence as frequently as men do, or even more often. The one thing that absolutely none of the studies that you've provided will support is the fact that women are affected disproportionately worse by physical violence in cases of intimate partner violence than men, in terms of impact. Women are also subject more commonly to other types of violence, other than physical violence, such as being subjected to sexual assault or stalking. Women are also much more likely to be murdered by an intimate partner.It's as if you made the claim that chihuahuas were more violent than pitbulls, in an effort to convince the world that pitbulls have been unfairly vilified.

So, I was out with a couple of friends the other day and we got to talking about circumcision when one of our friends brought up how being circumcised affected him sexually, then we congratulated my other friend for not circumcising his son. I asked my friend, who brought up the topic, if he identified as a feminist, and he said yes, so I asked him a few follow up questions: are you against circumcision? Against it. What do you think about the draft? Against it. What do you think about punitive justice? Against it. I didn't have to ask him if he would identify as an MRA--absolutely not. While you and the rest of MRAs are doing everything you can to put feminism down, most mainstream feminists have views that are compatible with those that MRAs ideally should have--and I believe that there is room for MRAs and feminists to have very productive conversations on topics where there might be nuance or disagreement. We, as MRAs, are never going to get there. The MRA movement is doomed.

I get that there are all of these apparent issues where MRAs feel that feminism is some nefarious force that has gained an intangible amount of power, but let's actually go through a few of the examples you've provided and talk about them.

This story posted under one of the compilation links you provided, claims: "One suffragette, Dr. Elizabeth Wilks even refused (as was her right under the law) to provide her husband with the necessary documentation so he could calculate the taxes, and given that he was a schoolteacher and responsible for paying for everything else, he couldn't have afforded to pay it regardless. While he was in prison, she urged other suffragettes to do what she had. He was released from prison on humanitarian grounds due to his failing health, and died a few months later."Mark Wilks did not in fact die a few months later--he went to live on for 30 more years, happily with his wife, and the person who made this claim also didn't bother to mention that the suffragettes held protests outside of his prison until he was released to the cheers of the Women's Tax Resistance League. This was a feel-good story that was spun in a really awful way to mix it along with legitimate stories on the perfidy of some of the suffragettes that employed terrorism as tactics and engaged in racist rhetoric, just to try to show that women were given equal rights without equal responsibilities--without mentioning that these protests were about British women not being able to vote at the time.
On feminists pushing against gender-neutral language in sexual assault cases, or pushing against automatic joint custody, etc. It's absolutely okay to have a rational discussion about these topics, but that's not what I see from MRAs. If you open up any of these links and read them, then you'll see that feminists have some kind of concern for women's safety, which seems to be totally overlooked by MRAs while you commonly see MRAs making generalizing statements, such as that, "feminists are just trying to hurt men", or that, "feminists are just making a grab for power". The same can be said of, for example, Sweden's abolishing of affirmative action (except that, while feminists complained about men gaining an advantage from affirmative action, feminists were not responsible for ending affirmative action in Sweden, as it appears that the moderate right-wing government of the time was, on the basis that it was discriminatory more broadly), where feminists are concerned about women being able to access specific fields where they are still underrepresented, such as in STEM fields and in roles of leadership and management.
We can acknowledge that there are bad actors in feminism, without vilifying the entire movement, and that is better for the Men's Rights Movement, if we're serious about having a healthy movement at all. If you actually talk to feminists, on r/askfeminists, for example, you'll find that they're incredibly rational and open to discussion, if you can approach them in good faith. Sadly, too often MRAs go to the sub to ask loaded questions in bad faith, and often have their preconceived biases proved wrong. MRAs on this sub commonly, for example, make the claim that women are all for equal rights until it comes to them being in the military--but if you ask the women from r/askfeminists you'll find a lot of veterans and women who are generally supportive of women in the military; but they're often concerned about the prevalence of sexual assault in the military and whether it's a safe environment for women to serve. Contrarily, on the other hand, you'll sometimes find men here on this sub who are explicitly against women being in the military, believing that if women aren't strong enough to carry men around that they shouldn't be serving in the military, nor on the police force, or as firefighters--and sometimes these views are accompanied with even worse beliefs and prejudices, such as that women are generally incompetent and can't be trusted with a firearm.We don't judge the MRA movement by the worst of men. Unfortunately, from my perspective, there isn't really a good example of what an MRA could be. Here, you'll see a lot of outrage over feminists protesting a screening of a quote-unquote "anti-feminist" documentary, with no further context, to acclaimed support from the MRA community, only to find that it's a film that blames feminism for the world's plummeting birth rates. This is absolutely inline with reactionary rhetoric, and it finds uncritical support here on these forums.

It's possible to argue that feminists can be irrational and fanatical, and that they have been in the past. But it's very clear the the purpose of this forum, and the Men's Rights Movement in general has become to manufacture anti-feminist outrage, and that the purpose of the movement is not, in fact, to advocate for the rights and wellbeing of men. If the worst of feminists represent the movement, then the Men's Rights Movement is represented by its complete lack of responsible and mature members.

[–]No-Ad-5825 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The fact that every time something like SA or DV of men is brought up you highly oppose it an never support it and say women are more affected just shows me that feminists and MRAs are never going to agree on anything. If you include suicides which are more often than homicides might i add more men kill them selves as a result we discuss circumcision more than feminists do if anything feminists are the ones that told me it isn't a problem and that. Women being violent is the biggest predictor for their own victimization and feminists. But here is the thing these studies like all studies have flows but feminists have a history are ones that pushed for the Duluth model which trains police officers toe regard men as the perpetrators a third of men who report DV are arrested themselves or turned away from help.

I'm not sure why you regard men suffering as lesser issue that women which do that all you want or feel like."It's as if you made the claim that chihuahuas were more violent thanpitbulls, in an effort to convince the world that pitbulls have beenunfairly vilified." and you are saying that men are inherently violent? Feminists have threatened Suzanne K Steinmeitz and Murray A Strauss and their families because they suggested that men could be victims of violence as much as the women. Women s groups rallied all the female faculty members to prevent Steinmeitz from getting tenure because of her studies around male victims of DV. Murray has been penalized in his career multiple times by feminists and pointed to major bias in research due to feminism. I'm not sure how you think feminists have any moral high ground more than MRAs.

They concealed evidence opposing their narrative of DV for the better part of 30 years im not sure which part about that is forgivable in your opinion. what is apparent to me is that men dont have the resources for DV and feminists are contributing to that also what is your opinion on the 130 feminists organizations that signed a letter of support for Amber Heard. Please bring me an equivalent example of MRAs doing what feminists are doing on a systemic level.

> On feminists pushing against gender-neutral language in sexual assaultcases, or pushing against automatic joint custody, etc. It's absolutelyokay to have a rational discussion about these topics, but that's notwhat I see from MRAs. If you open up any of these links and read them,then you'll see that feminists have some kind of concern for women'ssafety, which seems to be totally overlooked by MRAs while you commonlysee MRAs making generalizing statements."

Feminists have concern for women's safety. You mean this concern from the Israeli feminists? “What will happen now is that every time a woman files a criminalcomplaint against a man for rape, he will counter charge that the womancaused him to penetrate her body, that he did it without wanting to,”she said. “He will then make a counter complaint, so that there will betwo files in court, his against hers. This will block women, silencethem"

You think this is justifiable at all? for that safety concern you hark on about equality and yet you pick and chose when to be equal? What are you defending here exactly? Not having gender neutral rape laws because there is is a chance it might turn into a false accusation towards the woman? That is the concern that you think we are ignoring? wow man you reached a new low. I wonder how feminists feel about false accusations to men.

Hmm lets also look at a consequence of indian Feminists doing the same thing. This is a result of their fighting against gender neutral rape laws. a 10 year old boy gets raped by his older sister and gets sent to Juvie instead of getting justice. You think that "safety concerns for women" is a good rational for this?.

Lets also talk about the feminists Mary P Koss who in her own words thinks it is inappropriate to consider men as victims of rape and classified them in her own studies ass victims of coercion. Again what are you defending here where is the concern for women's safety the rational that you need to disregard men entirely. I should add that Mary P Koss went on to advice the CDC that is why the regard MTP as entirely different from rape with. Also the difference between men and women getting stalked isnt that large it is 1 in 3 for women and 1 in 6 for men very awful for both gender but our whole argument is that these crimes aren't gendered. If you take that as uss trying to take away from women's plights that is on you not on us.

You see i have such low expectations for feminists i don't care if they hold women accountable or not as i demonstrated they ensured that female abusers are kept on the low as much as possible but don't pretend that us being anti feminists is unwarranteed. But you are a massive piece of shit for minimizing mens experience with DV and claim that feminists are somehow sympathetic to our cause. You just demonstrated that we shouldnt work with feminists at all.

[–]No-Ad-5825 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Also i acknowledge that patriarchy is historical but i find it completely irrelevant when discussing men's issues because the existence of a historical patriarchy is the rational much of the feminists use for their misandry or sexist policy pushing. IPV is committed by women at equal rates same as men. Women commit the majority of fillicide and are just as active as human trafficking perps as men. Ask feminists to hold these women accountable they dont otherwise dont tell me to contradict my own movement and engage in what is self flagellation because you want us to acknowledge that the few men in power are somehow benefiting all men or even most men (they dont) you want us to be feminists that is it . Also quit talking about the narratives and us "cherry picking" one of the sources i gave you is a collection of 270 studies and a their respective meta analysis. I don't have problems finding any of my sources and i have an entire collection of them if you want me to go on. Sexual violence in women is under researched and not even codified in law. In the UK and a lot of states in the US women can not be charged with rape of women and as i mentioned feminist really didnt help that did they?

[–]No-Ad-5825 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Talk about Mary P Koss and how she thought it was inappropriate to consider men as rape victims in her research papers. Talk about how feminists in India and Israel pushed for gendered language https://www.jpost.com/israel/womens-groups-cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

Talk about how feminists harassed the first woman (Erin Pizzey) to make a DV shelter because she suggested that men could be victims at equal rates aside. Any major discussions around men's issues or groups that spring up to discuss these issues. if you simply dont understand why we are anti feminist do refer to these two posts for good measure.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9v6tqj/a_list_about_feminism_misandry_for_anyone_who/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/115b5he/analysing_feminist_rhetoric_the_hypocrisy_of_the/

You have a right to speak your mind in how the "men rights movement" is not maturing but you seriously cannot ignore that major demonstrations for men'ss rights in the past have been shut down by feminists.

You also demonstrated that you don't have care about men's issues and want us to address women's issues and paint them as if it an accountability issue that we should aspire to meanwhile feminists defend female abusers wholesale.

Title	Liberal feminism misunderstands women by ignoring sexual difference: panel at Harvard
Author	Heavy_Grand2526
Upvotes	66
Comments	19
Date	May 5, 2023 12:37 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1385dg2/liberal_feminism_misunderstands_women_by_ignoring/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/liberal-feminism-misunderstands-women-by-ignoring.1218039 https://theredarchive.com/post/1218039

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