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[–]Brutal-Black 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Seduction is most certainly real, but it can be as intricate or simple as you make it by using those strategies that you listed above
[–]dream-monzstar 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
As a woman I can speak to this. My friends and I have been discussing how my one friend is frustrated over being in the friend zone. He isn’t remotely attractive, but add to that he’s much older. Pretty weird to say the least. My friends think it’s strange that someone way older feels entitled to getting attention from me. They also say it’s not really realistic for him to have these expectations. Love is different than things like your career, which is in your full control. There’s no achievements behind love, so I think that’s the thing men should understand is that love is not meant to be a competition. It’s about cooperation. In fact it’s downright creepy for a man to see it as a competition. If you’re like me, being an attractive woman, you’ll have a hard time understanding why the men just won’t back off. I get the biological explanation of men just want to “spread their seed” because their chances of reproducing are actually low. But I can’t ever imagine myself being attracted to him. In fact, it just makes me angry that he seems to think he’ll change my mind in that way. That in turn will just strain our friendship. The way I see it to, if you keep pushing one person for a relationship, you’ll end up with no one. Maybe try finding someone who’s a little more in your league and see if you get lucky. And without a woman’s consent, seduction can’t exist, because that would just be coercion.
[–][deleted] 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
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[–]dream-monzstar 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Makes sense. I get what you’re saying. But that won’t change my mind. I’m just not that kind of woman. He should just move on.
[–][deleted] 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]dream-monzstar 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Yeah isn’t it like the animal world of all or nothing? Women are fooled into believing that there’s fairly equal opportunity amongst everyone. If I’ve learned anything, men are liars, especially in the world of sex. I don’t mean you necessarily, just in general.
[–]NCreature -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
That’s by necessity. Women don’t want inexperienced guys or guys who openly struggle to attract women. So guys who do struggle, which is most to some degree, have to try to put out a vibe that suggest otherwise or else they’re really screwed. Women select for dominant and confident men but the problem is you can’t be confident unless you have something to be confident about. You can’t just declare yourself confident that’s just narcissistic. So a lot of these guys are in a double bind. You need experience to get the job but you can’t get experience without first having the job.
[–]dream-monzstar 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I guess I never quite see it that way. From a girl’s perception, we just end up disillusioned with a man. All talk and no walk. It just feels like a waste of time (I suppose with sex being the exception). You just wonder what the hell happens to these guys when or if they ever grow up. Although I can say it’s hard to fall for a guy who quite literally does nothing. I’ve had that, too.
[–]NCreature -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Most of these guys just disappear. They kind of fall of the map. We're not talking about the kind of guys you date (because we have to clarify that when people say 'guys' or 'girls' they're usually talking about people they're interested in or have been with in the past not all men or women which is often a very small sample size). What I mean by they disappear is that there are legions of men out there who sort of never are able to achieve a real relationship or intimacy. They're sort of visibly invisible. Think of that shy guy at work or the college professor who is a bachelor into his 60s.
I think for women this seems strange because most women are capable of finding a man, it just may not be someone she prefers. But historically you have twice as many female ancestors as male ancestors, meaning a whole half of men never reproduced (which is extraordinary because widespread contraception is a recent phenomenon).
As far as your friend I don't think he feels entitled to you. That's a really bizarre interpretation of being in the friend zone. What's likely is that he doesn't feel entitled at all and, like so many men who lack confidence and assertiveness and tried to use being friendly as a way of trying to get in the back door. I use the analogy of someone who wants a car he can't afford so he tries to befriend the people at the dealer to see if they'll just give him one if they like him enough. This doesn't work because you can't plant cherry seeds and get an apple tree. If he wants a relationship it has to be built on the premise of things leading in that direction, not a friendship that magically 'corrects itself.' Men don't usually feel entitled to women even guys who are good with women because most guys know that it's really not easy to get a woman in the first place. I know a lot of guys, many of which are certifiably good with women, naturals, pick up artists, etc., I don't know that a single one of them feels entitled to women most of them are barely able to get what they can get. If anything its women who get entitled around men. Just read the laundry list of demands on a typical dating profile that women have (must be taller than 6', athletic, smart, etc). I think your female friends might be projecting their own predilections onto this guy or guys in general thinking the way women see men is the way men see women.
The right way to go about things would've been for the guy to just come out and sort of make his offer, so to speak, and then let you either accept or reject it. And then everyone moves on. But the problem is he, deep down, already knows the answer, so what's happening is just a long drawn out game of no. This is a common problem with guys who have low self-esteem and lack assertiveness. Rather than inviting you into their world they're trying to do the 'safe' thing and take up a residency in yours, which is uninteresting. Instead of getting an answer and moving on they sort of drag out the answer (which in some cases might've been a yes or a maybe at first) for years and years until it becomes a hard no. And because you're a nice person and don't want to be mean, you're not going to shut it down until you absolutely have to, so this thing just drags on and on.
One person has to step up and do the uncomfortable thing, which is to say how they feel, and since it's not likely to be the guy, it has to be you. Because what happens in these situations is that at a certain point the guy will just get sick of being your friend and then will vomit out a bunch of "i always wanted to be with yous" which will just blow everything up and you'll end up ghosting him, or it will become awkward, etc. Just like he should've stepped up and taken a risk at the onset, the mature thing to do now is for you to shut it down now before it becomes a bigger problem. He deep down already knows the answer anyway. Your friendship is nothing but a farce anyway, it's not real, its a consolation prize that you aren't happy with because he wants more and that he's not happy with because he wants more. So if you are meant to just be friends whatever you have now needs to be blown up and rebuilt from a paradigm of true friendship not 'the next best thing.'
[–]dream-monzstar 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Thing is it’s always been hard for me to make friends as a loner. And yes, I found out he wanted to be friends with me in the first place because he was attracted to me. It didn’t feel right, and I let him know. He’s middle aged, bald, just kind of ugly. Has a son and is divorced, lives with his dad. It’s hard for me when I want to have real friends but with men I get orbiters, and with women I get cattiness. This isn’t from everyone, of course. Some people I think are wonderful, too. I guess it’s hard for me to make friends outside of work. Also, all I’ve ever known was the small town life, so I just don’t get exposed to a lot of different people. Add COVID to the mix. I don’t mind being alone but it seems to attract those orbiters as friends. Maybe they see an opportunity because they see that I’m friendless. And boy are they clingy. It just makes me want to go back to being alone, despite wanting that emotional connection with other people, both romantic relationships and friendships.
[–]NCreature 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yea I can empathize. The problem with orbiters though, like you said, is that they secretly always want something you're not prepared to give (or more specifically they want something you won't give to them) which always adds a lot of tension. That's definitely a tough situation you're in though for sure.
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[–]Brutal-Black 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]dream-monzstar 3 points4 points5 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]dream-monzstar 0 points1 point2 points (9 children) | Copy Link
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[–]dream-monzstar 0 points1 point2 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]NCreature -1 points0 points1 point (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]dream-monzstar 1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]NCreature -1 points0 points1 point (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]dream-monzstar 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]NCreature 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link