Lurked for a while, my experience with TRP

[–][deleted] 7 points7 points7 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[–]Krigerlifestyle -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MorePancakes5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

This considered concern trolling and will probably be removed.

Let me enlighten you on a few points though.

TRP doesn't hate women, though when you begin to understand them it is natural to be disgusted by the majority in our culture.
TRP doesn't have anything against certain original aspects of the woman's rights movement. Very few here would argue that any spousel abuse is acceptable. Of course there are nutjobs here and there and everywhere... But we hate the slanted culture shift that has accused in robbing men's rights to due process in domestic violence cases.
Where do you get off saying the brother (in the story you mentioned) is wrong for using his self improvement to play the field is wrong? By what moral code do you hold? Is it that all fornication is wrong? Then I suppose you are a virgin? If not how is it any different? He didn't force those women he became more attractive to attract them. I do the ssame in the business world...
Yes we can be a bit of a circlejerk... it is inevitable when you find such a small group who finally agrees with you.

[–]Krigerlifestyle -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

This one actually made me laugh a bit.

TRP doesn't hate women, though when you begin to understand them it is natural to be disgusted by the majority in our culture.

You literally start the post by saying "We don't hate this, but a majority of this is bad". I hate to break it to you, but that means you at the very least dislike women.

TRP doesn't have anything against certain original aspects of the woman's rights movement. Very few here would argue that any spousel abuse is acceptable. Of course there are nutjobs here and there and everywhere... But we hate the slanted culture shift that has accused in robbing men's rights to due process in domestic violence cases.

I started scratching my head on this one. I never brought up women's rights, spousal abuse, etc. The problem with a shift in law has nothing to do with anything I posted. This is wayy out in left field.

Where do you get off saying the brother (in the story you mentioned) is wrong for using his self improvement to play the field is wrong? By what moral code do you hold? Is it that all fornication is wrong? Then I suppose you are a virgin? If not how is it any different? He didn't force those women he became more attractive to attract them. I do the ssame in the business world...

Well, I am actually Christian (Catholic to be specific). But regardless of religion, I don't feel as though it is beneficial to society to "play the field". I believe that loyalty and a strong family unit is something to value. I believe that "playing the field" is a part of a culture that has drastically increased divorce rates which have had hugely negative consequences on the economy and society in general. I'm not going to be bold and say that all fornication is wrong (although I may or may not believe it), but I do believe that fornication without commitment is indeed wrong and should be discouraged in a good society.

Fun stuff. I "get off" on talking about how great life can be and by hoping that other men learn to grow and love the strengths and weaknesses of women! Women have given so much to my life, and I hope that they are valued and respected as much as they deserve.

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But regardless of religion, I don't feel as though it is beneficial to society to "play the field".

Okay, let's see where this goes.

I believe that loyalty and a strong family unit is something to value.

Right, no argument there.

I believe that "playing the field" is a part of a culture that has drastically increased divorce rates which have had hugely negative consequences on the economy and society in general.

[citation needed]. Sorry, but you don't get to make claims without presenting evidence. What evidence do you have that men fucking lots of women before marriage is positively correlated with increased divorce rates? Playing the "I believe" card gets you nowhere around here.

I'm not going to be bold and say that all fornication is wrong (although I may or may not believe it), but I do believe that fornication without commitment is indeed wrong and should be discouraged in a good society.

Why? Fucking why? You've still literally presented zero rational arguments.

[–]Krigerlifestyle 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MorePancakes2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You literally start the post by saying "We don't hate this, but a majority of this is bad". I hate to break it to you, but that means you at the very least dislike women.

Nope it doesn't... I hate the culture, I hate what it's training women to be. You drop me in a different time or culture and I have no animosity towards them because of their vagina's.

I started scratching my head on this one. I never brought up women's rights, spousal abuse, etc. The problem with a shift in law has nothing to do with anything I posted. This is wayy out in left field.

It isn't out of left field, it was you talking about feminism, and me proactively correcting views. I used an extreme point to further my point.

Well, I am actually Christian (Catholic to be specific). But regardless of religion, I don't feel as though it is beneficial to society to "play the field". I believe that loyalty and a strong family unit is something to value. I believe that "playing the field" is a part of a culture that has drastically increased divorce rates which have had hugely negative consequences on the economy and society in general. I'm not going to be bold and say that all fornication is wrong (although I may or may not believe it), but I do believe that fornication without commitment is indeed wrong and should be discouraged in a good society.

So here we agree, I too am Christian but we are a vast minority on reddit, internet, the world, and of course... TRP. But here I challenge as a brother, how is "Fornication with out commitment" any different than fornication with commitment? That isn't biblical nor do I know any renown theologians who would back your point. Sin is sin, fornication is wrong with or without anything else.

But one further point... TRP isn't what furthers "Playing the field"... Our culture does that, and honestly so does feminism... Nothing objectifies women like sapping their personality to the point of not even being able to hold a conversation with them lol...

Read the side bar, true TRP theology professes that Sexual Strategy is amoral. I agree with that. I'm using it to better myself as a man, and help me attract my unicorn (TRP slang for the woman who defies the norm and is worth commitment).

Fun stuff. I "get off" on talking about how great life can be and by hoping that other men learn to grow and love the strengths and weaknesses of women! Women have given so much to my life, and I hope that they are valued and respected as much as they deserve.

I do as well and am always open for discussion on my beliefs or anyone else's!

[–]Krigerlifestyle -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It is interesting that after I talk about the problems with TRP, you immediately are looking towards women as the problem. You can hate what the western culture has done towards women, but what I am arguing is that regardless of what occurs in a woman's mind, you should be looking to improve yourself for the betterment of others.

It is a tricky point to define fornication. The classical idea is sex outside of marriage. The statement that I was trying to make is simple and can be agreed upon by atheists and Christians alike (atheists dominate Reddit). Sex is an outward expression of commitment, or at least it should be. It should be a unifying gesture to another person that you care for them and are trying to bond with them in an intimate way. "Playing the field" is the exact opposite of this sort of concept of sexuality and is the basis of numerous posts in TRP.

Perhaps part of my argument is that the basic idea that sexual strategy is amoral is outright wrong. It is a difficult argument to make and it leads to negative consequences. You can talk all day about self improvement, but the basis for self improvement should not be sexual escapades (as many posts are). That is the idea I am trying to convey. Rather, self improvement should be for the betterment of everyone.

[–]MorePancakes4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It is interesting that after I talk about the problems with TRP, you immediately are looking towards women as the problem. You can hate what the western culture has done towards women, but what I am arguing is that regardless of what occurs in a woman's mind, you should be looking to improve yourself for the betterment of others.

It isn't interesting when that is the flaw you brought up about TRP... I was defending your attacks.

It is a tricky point to define fornication.

Ha!!! That is some hamstering if ever there was one.. Fornication as defined by the bible and all theologians I have read is sex before you are married in the church through God, in front of your 'family' (meaning Christian family). No greys my man... none at all.

Perhaps part of my argument is that the basic idea that sexual strategy is amoral is outright wrong.

Now THIS I would love to debate... Are you familiar with the stages of the red pill? Are you familiar with the aspect of MGTOW?

[–]Krigerlifestyle -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MorePancakes0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are countless posts talking about how weak and inferior women are. They talk about how women brood and fight.

While people can argue the definition all day long, most feminists I know live by a simple principle: men are less than women. Men are less intelligent, less social, less productive, etc.

Were the two I thought invited conversation on the validity of our "hatred" (your words) of women.

Not too much hamstering I think. Really just looking to find common ground on a complicated issue, sex. All forms of marriage have one thing in common: commitment. It transcends all cultures and borders. Do I personally think sex outside of marriage is wrong? Yep. I believe that marriage is the level of commitment necessary to form that sort of bond.

Fair enough

Not too familiar with any specific Reddit philosophies. Read the short "about" page for MGTOW. Seems a bit off, but I'm willing to debate anything you want.

More TRP than reddit philosophies (a derivative of the old PUA slang terms)

MGTOW is a man not intent on playing the field. Who is content to use this to better himself and seek after only himself. Seen as the ultimate status often quoted by "Fuck bitches get money". This culture is to arm people. What they do with that is at their discretion. I'm not using it to play the field, I'm using it to expand my horizons, meet new people (men and women) be better at business, be better for me.

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[–]WTF77777770 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (61 children) | Copy Link

I don't mean to rain on your parade. But marriage is a gamble with half your income and assets that she'll love you forever or that you'll want her too. There's no money in poo poo'ing marriage. Rather, all you see is positive reinforcement from diamond commercials, love songs, and living happily ever after. Read the book Men on Strike by Dr. Helen Smith. I too am amazed that I could get through a masters program and not have learned a damn'd thing about family law and what goes on in marriages. Live in a state where alimony for life can be had after just 10 years of marriage? Did you realize you'd be responsible for child support if she gets pregnant with another man's kid? Did you realize women after pushing out a few kids need a larger member to get the job done? Did you realize when a woman's bulb is about to go out it burns brighter in a last ditch effort to reproduce? So she craves the alpha male. There is so many reasons contributing to divorce. Marriage doesn't guarantee a lasting relationship but a lasting relationship can be had without marriage.

Here's a couple of tid bits I typically pass on to young men. I sleep quite well warning my own sons with the same advice.

5 kids from 3 paying BABY DADDIES !!!!? There's no incentive for a woman to stay married to one man. She can simply collect child support from multiple men. One loses a job, ends up in jail cuz he can't pay his child support ? No worries. There's 2 more paying baby daddies. What risk does the woman bear in having babies ? Does she risk jail time for non payment of child support ? No. What penalty does she pay for having the 5th child she can't support on her own ? More and more government services. Where's the financial aid for fathers that can't afford to pay child support ? Watch the new Docu-movie Divorce Corp. by Dr. Drew, trailer is on Youtube. Also listen to Tom Leykis on Youtube and the manwomanmyth channel as well. Tell 10 friends to tell 10 friends.

Relationships fizzle. Why ? (from dictionary.com) FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT The better we know people, the more likely we are to find fault with them. Long experience of someone or something can make one so aware of the faults as to be scornful. For example, Ten years at the same job and now he hates it familiarity breeds contempt . The idea is much older, but the first recorded use of this expression was in Chaucer's Tale of Melibee (c. 1386). So divorce happens.

You have to view a relationship like a rental car agreement. You rent one of those Dodge Challengers and You love it ! Enjoy the ride, don't abuse it, give it the appropriate level of maintenance, but if the rental company calls and wants you to return it cuz you said you only needed it for a couple days but now it's going on a week, SO you just say, "Oh really ? oh ok, thanks, here ya go !" Then find another rental car. If they rent you a clunker you just turn around and bring it back. Not so easy to do once you are married.

In other words, you can't get too emotionally invested. And when you get married you end up financially invested without really understanding to the degree you really are. See /r/killmarriage for more reference material on what you need to be aware of. I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. But if she gets pregnant, the baby is your financial responsibility whether it's yours or not. It's an insidious evil system that should be avoided. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdX7L9u4O_0

[–]Krigerlifestyle 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (60 children) | Copy Link

I too do not mean to rain on your parade, but here goes.

Marriage by it's very nature was designed to be lifelong. Whether you are of a religious origin or not, marriage was not designed to have an expiration date. So, let's talk about lifelong marriage.

Can a woman gain short term financial benefit? You betchya. I work with low income properties and I am well aware of the baby farming system. However, I think you are missing a few things.

Firstly, my fiancee has a masters degree as well. Farming children for child support would be an economic loss for her. She makes more money without children than she would with them.

Secondly, money isn't the only thing you gain from marriage. Emotional stability is worth as much, if not more than money. Being a single mother is a difficult life, even if you are choosing it for yourself. People crave well being, and divorce never fosters emotional stability.

Finally, you have the wrong idea about marriage my friend. Marriage is not some sort of business. Marriage is a choice. It is an active choice to choose the other individual over all else regardless of circumstance. I am happy to choose her and I am forever blessed that she chooses me. It is a beautiful thing.

[–]WTF77777770 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link

[–]Krigerlifestyle 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (58 children) | Copy Link

[–]WTF77777770 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

People fall out of love all the time. You love that new car you bought and 7 years later you're trading it in despite the fact it will last another 10 years. My ex wife said to me after 18 years of marriage and 25 years of a relationship I just don't want to be married to you anymore. My buddy who's stuck in a loveless sexless 14 year marriage said his wife told him she loves him but she no longer is IN LOVE with him. A friend woman of mine says that means she no longer desires to sleep with him. The other childhood buddy of mine's wife cheated on him after he nursed her back from health from breast cancer. So the 4 of us? 0 for 4. Middle class college educated.

Here's what will play out. You'll decide to have kids, she'll stay home for the next 10 15 years because you won't want day care centers raising your kids. Divorce court will force your kids to live with her new man, and you'll be forced to pay and pay and pay. And the lawyers laugh at me because they know, a smart man learns from his mistakes, a smarter man learns from other people's mistakes. Lawyers know the majority of the population of men are not smarter. Bring on gay marriage. Ellen Degeneris ? Already heading to divorce court.

[–]Krigerlifestyle 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

You may not like this response. If you are not invested in the discussion, just turn back now.

I'll start with common ground. I agree wholeheartedly that divorce courts are a broken system. They need to be fixed and I will vote for legislators who push for reform.

The constant within all of the examples you gave is You. It was your marriage and your friends who all got divorces (0 for 4). I don't know the specifics of any of these examples, but I do know that an attitude was lost in all four of those relationships. My marriage is not about me. My marriage is about my soon to be wife. It is the same for her. We make the decision because we both make a decision to be with each other no matter what.

It is your choice to sign any divorce papers. Me personally, I will never sign a divorce paper under any circumstance. I will never leave my wife and I will die before I give up on her. Marriage is a lifelong journey. It isn't just a choice that I make in which I can change at any time.

Every single day I ask my soon to be wife what I can do to be better for her, and she asks me the same question right back. My relationship isn't about me anymore. Our relationship is about each other. You can site statistics and quotes and examples all day long, but there is a steadfast determination that has been lost in the past two generations. I will be loyal. I will be faithful. I will not let go.

At the end of the day, your marriage is your choice. You chose to divorce her. I'm sorry for that. It was the wrong decision. That doesn't mean everyone will choose divorce. That doesn't mean that I even believe there is a choice. When I say I do. I do.

[–]WTF77777770 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (53 children) | Copy Link

She made the decision to be with you until she no longer decides to be with you. Nothing more. It's hard for you to relate until you've lived it. Did you have other girl friends? Did any of them decide they just didn't want to be a couple anymore? Marriage is no different. Relationships fizzle out.

Grasshopper, you are completely ill informed. You have no choice when someone wants to divorce you. You don't have to sign the divorce papers if she wants out. You get in front of the judge and the lawyers redistribute your income and assets in the best case scenario. At worst you end up paying child support on a child born of an infidelity. You really need to read /r/divorce and understand the heart break men go through. Choose not to appear in court? They'll issue a warrant for your arrest.

Women in the work place, the ease of hooking up the internet makes it. Oh sure you might go 10 or 20 years but after the love and kids are gone, here's what happens: Relationships fizzle. Why ? (from dictionary.com) FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT The better we know people, the more likely we are to find fault with them. Long experience of someone or something can make one so aware of the faults as to be scornful. For example, Ten years at the same job and now he hates it familiarity breeds contempt . The idea is much older, but the first recorded use of this expression was in Chaucer's Tale of Melibee (c. 1386). So divorce happens.

So you think your vote counts? Think you're going to change the law? First off there's more women and fathers with daughters and they all vote. If the government really wanted families to stay in tact they'd abolish divorce. But that wouldn't be good for one of the largest lobby groups controlling the government puppets, the legal establishment. Again, a smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from others' mistakes. I sleep quite soundly giving my sons the same advice. The marriage rate is dropping like a brick because the word is getting out that marriage is a farce. No one who gets married anymore considers it to be forever.

Live together. Hopefully it lasts forever and your children won't be forced to live with strange men. And if and when your relationship is over, part ways. There's no guarantee you still won't end up in court, but at least it won't be official. Listen to some Tom Leykus on Youtube. I have a MBA too, a concentration on finance. Here's what they didn't teach me about marriage, how to divide your assets in half.

[–]Krigerlifestyle 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link

No one who gets married anymore considers it to be forever.

I read through these responses and I really am taken back by one thing, you keep copy and pasting a response to me off of a subreddit that you did not even write. Let's start there and just move forward.

The "Familiarity breeds contempt" argument isn't based on anything. Your source is dictionary.com. If you actually study psychology, you are going to receive very mixed signals based on numerous variables. The actual studies will show you that people prefer to be with what they are familiar with. Don't believe me? Go open a business and see how hard it is to get new customers.

Now it comes down to calling me a "grasshopper". This comes across in only one way to me: you think you know more than me. Well, ok. Let's talk about that.

50% of marriages end in divorce. The number on that is actually a bit lower due to repeat divorcee's, but I'll start with the worst case number. This means that 50% of marriages also succeed. From the sound of your argument you make it seem like no one succeeds. That's just not the case. Half do.

If you believe that all marriages fail because human's aren't meant to get married, I could surely understand why you are so against marriage. I don't believe that, and history doesn't believe that. There are many, many people who are happily married who have been married long term.

All marriages are not the same. You can get married with terrible ideas. Terrible ideas like stating that marriage is not "forever". If you go into a marriage with the mindset that it will end, it will. Marriage is hard work. It is a choice that above all else you will choose the other person. You will choose to continue with them. It's very evident that you did not and will not ever make that choice. I'm sorry for that.

I'm sorry because no one, and I am no one will ever choose you over everything else when you openly admit that you will not make that kind of commitment. You are right. You should NEVER get married. You don't understand the very concept of it. In fact, you should NEVER have children! You can't propose to me that you are willing to choose them over everything else when you can't even give them a stable family life.

Can you choose to stay married? Absolutely. You can drag out a divorce process for a very long time and contest the divorce for years to come. You can make it very clear to a judge and your wife that you will refuse this process. You can contest child support, receive custody on the kids, and even demand child support for your ex-wife. It might be a little bit more possible if you are say... faithful, supportive, constructive, etc.

My guess is YOU gave up.

That last comment you gave about men being lulled into marriage by believing that your wife loves you like your mom... What? I don't believe me fiancee loves me like my mom. I believe her love for me to be passionate and sexual. I can honestly say the love I have with my mom is not sexual.

Final thought: I'm sorry that you lost so much in this.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Have you read the book "Men on Strike" by Dr. Helen Smith? You took the time to get an MBA? But you didn't research what could half the fruits of your effort? Marriage? Well by the sounds of it, I do know more than you. I'm guessing you're in your 20's. I'm in my 50's. Experience comes with age which comes with experience. How many hours a week do you interact with 50 somethings besides your own parents who just might have that fairy tale long term marriage you refer to?

So in response to your response, A marriage counselor said to me that the divorce rate for second marriages is actually higher at about 70%. But let's not split hairs. So you have a 40% chance of ending up in divorce for any number of reasons. She cheated. You cheated. Sure. 50% of marriages succeed. Is that good? A house cat lives longer than a wild cat. Which lives a fuller life? The long term marriages you speak of, the ones you run into today, chances are the wives weren't in the work place, they didn't have an unlimited supply of men from facebook and the internet contacting them unbeknownst to you. It was a different generation.

Marriage is hard work? Then why do it? And what's the pay off? There are relationships that are easy breezy. Those are the ones you want. Not the pain in the ass hard work ones. I've been in them since my divorce. And I've been in difficult relationships. Luckily I didn't remarry. The exit strategy is a lot easier.

With marriage you have a 40 60 chance of ending up being forced to pay child support on the baby born of a cheating wife. Or paying child support so your kids can be shuffled off to your ex wife's new man's home. Live in Jersey? Florida? So you can end up being forced to pay alimony for life? Yeah and sure you could drag a divorce out. But why? So you spend all your money on lawyers? You're going to try to force someone to be with you when they just don't want to? Marriage doesn't mean you own her or can control her. How will you act if you catch her cheating? Easy to end up with a criminal record reacting in an uncontrolled manner.

At 24 I might have thrown up the same argument for marriage. I received the same brainwashing you did from family, church and media. Marriage is great for the economy. Everyone from the cake maker to the home builder profits. I would look at those in my office going through divorce as losers. Well they must have done something wrong to bring on the divorce. I didn't understand women at the time, and I didn't understand human nature.

Oh, and here's how the whole children thing plays out. The courts like to award the children to the mother. She might paint you as a monster at her lawyers behest. Guilty until proven innocent grasshopper. You'll be paying child support and that's the way it goes. Talk to some men who've been through it. Do your research. I know, it's amazing we bother achieved a masters level of education and have to find out the hard way that marriage is a scam. By all means have relationships. No wants to be lonely. But sex isn't free. One way or another men pay. Here's what I tell my sons. Don't get married or procreate in another country when you want kids. The USA family court system is hostile towards men. Hence the book, "Men on Strike" Wish I could've wrote it myselfe.

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I still chuckle at the "grasshopper" comments. I actually work with 2 people over 50 years old right now. They are my business partners. One is married and one is divorced.

Experience actually comes to those who seek it out. You can very easily get through life without learning much of anything in this day and age. It's tough to make the statement that age is how you know more than me when at the very least we both have the same education levels.

The funniest part to me was when you mentioned that marriage helps the economy. You are 100% correct. Lasting and stable marriages are the best thing for any economy. I'm also in the home building business. It's pretty good where I live.

Why do it?

I am getting married because I love her. I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I am ready to commit myself 100% to her. Forever.

Love goes both ways. I both love unconditionally and am loved unconditionally. We can talk about the benefits of a longer, happier life... but I don't think you would care. At the end of the day it comes down to well being and trust. I enjoy having someone that I can fully trust, who thinks of me before herself, and who gives to me.

I get it.

I get it man. I understand that your marriage failed. I understand that you are truly bitter about the entire institution. I understand that fighting the legal battle is an uphill climb. I understand I could lose money on a divorce. I'll tell you this right now, losing half of all the money I earned at any point in my life is nowhere near as costly as losing someone who is as important and valuable as my fiancee.

You lost sight of her. Hell, maybe you did marry an asshole. I'm sorry for your loss. Being with someone who cares about you is great. It is greater than any one night stand or short term fling. It is beautiful.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your business partners prove out the 50 50 divorce odds. Apparently you're not seeking out experience by getting online and chatting with those who might have something to teach you. You come to the table with your own preconceptions. We don't have the same education levels because I learned something about the US Family court system that you did not. The cost of my training? Oh a few hundred grand and a criminal record for chasing down the man my ex wife was cheating with. Think I'm the only one? Check out /r/divorce. Read some of the stories.

Lasting and stable marriages are good for the economy. Divorce is even better. One home splits into two. 2 divorce attorneys can each buy a boat off just one couple divorcing. That puts a few more people to work. Divorce might lead to 2 homes being built. Or at least a multi family housing complex.

So you can't commit to her without signing a license? A license for the government to redistribute your income and assets at a future date? A license for the government to hold you responsible for whose ever baby is born of her? She loves you unconditionally? How do you know this? Because she tells you this? And in 20 years you can predict she will feel the same way?

So she won't commit to you unless you marry her? And you don't seem to be the least little bit suspicious? You can't have a cult without culture. Our CULTure is you're not normal unless you get married. Perhaps you'll remember this conversation 7 to 10 years out when you're getting that lesson in family law I suggested you get BEFORE you get married.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But I guess we all just have to live and learn on our own. The forces of Monkey See Monkey Do and When in Rome are too strong for any stranger to convince you you are making a huge mistake signing a marriage license. Why do I care what you do? Because I'm trying to effect a Tipping Point. I'm sure you read the book being an MBA grad. It's how small ideas become major trends. If I paid a Sports figure millions to warn everyone what a scam marriage is, more people would take me seriously. Dr. Drew by the way narrated for the documentary Divorce Corp. Why am I trying to effect a tipping point? Revenge on the system that is corrupt and a cancer on the American family. Marriage was a good thing. Not anymore. Not with no fault divorce which up until it was put into effect at least there was some personal accountability. Now all a woman has to do after you support her for 20 years is just say she no longer wants to be married to you. Anyway. I wish you luck as I'm shaking my head.

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Let me end on a final note...

I mentioned that familiarity doesn't breed contempt. I sited psychological studies while you cited dictionary.com. You never responded.

I've brought up a dozen times that what you lost relationally is far more valuable than what you lost economically. A good wife is worth more than half of your income. You remain silent on these points.

I brought up that maintaining a healthy and loving family is work. You maintain that there is no reason to work for a wife or relationship. Basically, you are expecting some sort of payout in the relationship world with little to no effort. TBH, it doesn't sound like you have an MBA. You should never expect something from nothing.

Your entire basis for the dissolution of all marriages is that the legal system allows it to be so simple and easy. What you fail to understand is that a legal system should not dictate the creation and destruction of a marriage. I completely agree that the legality of marriage is extremely flawed, but i'm really not worried about it. If my wife at any times wants to divorce me solely on the basis of money... She can take it. Being in a marriage about money is empty and flawed and I wish her the best moving on.

I get it. You had a terrible marriage with an awful women that probably ended in disaster. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience and the legal system fucked you. Find a better woman. The only way you will find someone better is if you work on yourself and are equally as better.

Argue with me all day and tell me how naive I am. That's fine. The love that we share has gone through so many ups and downs and remained strong. I am nothing but pleased with my fiancee and am excited to experience the rest of my life with her. I'm sorry you never had that opportunity.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can read this first paragraph and delete. That's great. You want to spend the rest of your life with your woman. So do it. Don't get married. But hey is sounds like you understand the risks. A marriage license is a license for the corrupt family court system to redistribute you income and assets at a future date as they see fit regardless of pre-nups. So long as you got that straight, more power to you. So long as you don't mind supporting you ex wife and her new man after you marriage ends you'll be fine.

But familiarity does breed contempt. I've experienced it over and over in my 50 years. Do you really want me to search for studies that prove this? I know they're out there. Have you worked in the work place? It's great when you're the new guy. 2 years later you're doing battle with 1 or more people. Why do you think these sayings exist? Why don't they say Familiarity breeds ever lasting love and forever devotion? If that were the case there wouldn't be any divorce. People would be renewing their vows instead of dissolving them.

So you are willing to pay for a relationship? A relationship can't be had without you getting stuck paying life time alimony and losing half your assets in the likely event you become the sole wage earner? You can have a relationship you know without marriage. Have you considered it? Have you read the book "Men on Strike" by Dr. Helen Smith?

Maintaining a loving family might have been possible in your parent's case, but there's no guarantee. It is not souly within your control. And it won't be your wife who pays out in the event of divorce, it will be you. Read everything in /r/killmarriage and add this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMdxNdYefzw

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I get it. I've heard you reference the same three things at least a half dozen times at this point. You have referenced all of the subreddits regarding divorce. Literally, your points go back to your original claims over and over and over again. Stick with the arguments and go from there.

Your entire argument that you regurgitate over and over to me is that the only thing that will happen when I get married is a costly divorce case where I lose my kids, my money, and the woman laughs at me in the process.

Who the hell are you marrying? My fiancee would never do that because she has a respect for the people around her. Sure, I see poor and uneducated people abuse the system, but I'm not marrying blindly. I am marrying a specific person that I have grown to love who has grown to love me and am in a relationship where we think of each other before ourselves.

You seem to downplay the value of any relationship. You just think it can be bought and sold like a commodity. Man. That must suck to live like that. You can't and won't trust anyone unless you are in a mutually beneficial relationship and you seek to gain more than you seek to give. I understand how you got divorced. That mentality will never survive in a marriage and you should NEVER think of getting married with that attitude.

Is it right? Well.. Look at the path family life has been on in society. You can choose it all day long. That doesn't make it good. If you are looking for yourself in the one you marry, that is beyond selfish. I won't disregard the study because I understand that it exists. What it doesn't prove is long term relationships breed contempt. It proves that the beginning stages of a relationship can breed contempt if you are dissimilar. Fair enough.

Sorry man.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You didn't answer my question. How come a long term relationship is not possible for you without the financial covenant of marriage? Are you insecure? Do you think marriage is going to make it any more difficult for your girl to end the relationship? Women are like light bulbs. One moment their love for you is burning bright and their throwing you 40th birthday parties and the next moment they've got the hots for someone at work. Doesn't matter whether you're the total package or not. I've seen it. Rich and poor, tall and short. No man is immune.

You've already proven your naivete' by suggesting you could block a divorce by stalling or not signing off. Do you understand what a woman means when she tells you she loves you but she's no longer "in-love" with you? Have you done your due diligence? Talk to a few older women. Ask them what that means. Like I said, those who can't listen must feel. A smart man will learn by his own mistakes versus the smarter man who would learn from others' mistakes. I guess you are better at predicting the future than the rest of us. Ego, naivete', ill informed, idealistic, blinded by hormones. It's many a man's downfall.

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am Roman Catholic. I believe that marriage is a covenant between two people. It is an ongoing act to choose each other above all else for the rest of time.

Marriage is more than a piece of paper signed by a courthouse. It is an act of love.

I am well aware of being "in-love" and loving someone. One is a feeling. One is an act. I choose the act, and so does she. The butterfly stage of our relationship ended a long, long time ago. Again, you keep trying to tell me how much age has to do with the equation. I am sorry that your specific relationship did not work out and thus every relationship you view is unhappy/flawed/going to end.

I completely understand how if you have absolutely no moral disposition to join together with another human, you wouldn't want a marriage. It is a great deal of responsibility and is considered work from time to time. If you do not value deep bonds, you probably don't care about relationships in general.

I get it. You don't want to be with another person long term. You seek thrills and fun. Great. Don't get married. Never have more kids.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You do realize over 4000 Catholic priests molested 1 or more children? So can you take anything the entire organization has to say seriously? Ok enough of that. You don't have to be sorry my marriage didn't work out. Other than the thievery that took place legally in the eyes of the corrupt family law system that exists, I went on to other many fulfilling learning loving relationships in the 8 years I've been divorced. My only regret is that my 18 year marriage didn't end sooner. Like at the typical 7 year mark. I could have had another 5 or 6 fresh new relationships in that time. So what if they ended after 2 years each? It would've been exciting an new and a learning opportunity. So let me ask you this. You know how you know your woman REALLY loves you? Ask her to be with you forever without marriage. I'm guessing she won't go for it. Do let us know.

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Hey babe. I have really been thinking lately. I want to ask you something. Hear me out on this one. I really want to be with you for the rest of my life. I want to choose you over everyone else. I want to make sure you know that... but, can we not make it official? Can we not have a ceremony where we tell all of our friends and family about our next step in life and celebrate this journey? Can we keep our options open just in case we want to stop being with each other in the future. You know, I mean I want to be with you forever, but maybe I won't later."

Don't get married my friend. You don't want to be with someone long term. As soon as the relationship gets difficult and you have to work at it a bit you break up and leave. Marriage is not about options. It is about the other person.

It's somewhat laughable the situations that you suggest. You want a relationship without commitment. Why even consider yourself in a relationship at all? Just have one night stands and dates. They are probably more fun in the short term, they require almost no work, and you will never experience familiarity (which you really seem to hate).

I'll give you a story because I think it shows the differences between our two points. My grandmother passed away in 2001. She died from complications of Polio and Cystic Fibrosis. She was never able to walk in her life. When she passed my grandfather was extremely lonely. It took him less than a year to find another woman and in that year he got remarried to a wonderful woman named Betty. For the first two years they were the happiest couple in the world. Both of them. They really were. But...

Betty came down with lung cancer two years into their marriage. She died about a year, year and a half later. She was bed ridden the last six months and really struggled as the cancer enveloped her other organs and brains. There was nothing anyone could do.

The difference between you and I is simple. My grandfather made a commitment to that woman. He stood by her and cared for her every single day. It wore him out and he struggled. Hell, I would come by and help him out from time to time. On the other hand, he could have never remarried. He could have simply dated her and walked away when things really got bad. We all knew it. She wasn't coming back from the cancer.

He didn't choose to care for her because it was best for himself. He chose to care for her because it was best for her. I don't think you would ever be in a relationship like that.

Finally, there are millions of priests over the time frame that 4,000 molested children. They molested at a lower rate than society (by far). It was a small group of people in a massive organization. If you want to get technical, I am not upset that a few priests molested children. I am upset with the way it was handled by the organization with regards to dealing with the situation. However, I am upset with how most companies deal with a situation of that nature.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Exactly. Run that past her. And if she says I want to be with you no matter what you'll at least know she's not looking to get her financial claws into you. What you don't seem to understand is that people fall out of love all the time and you can't predict the future. Mankind evolved quite nicely for over 100,000 years to our current form without this thing called marriage. What you don't seem to understand are the financial and quality of life risks you're exposing yourself to. Would I warn my own sons not to get married if down deep I didn't think I understood the risks? If I didn't know there were good men with good intentions ending up on the shit end of the stick? You're friends and family will be no where to be found when you're sitting there in divorce court explaining to the judge this child is not yours and that your wife cheated. It could happen. And if you don't mind paying for someone else's kid, go right on ahead and get married.

A good friend of mine was married to a woman 10 years older than he. She had a stroke associated with brain cancer. He paid her medical bills and made a full recovery. Within 5 years she ran off with a guy she was involved with during the 9/11 volunteer work out in NY.

NO. There's a database of about 4000 priests who molested 1 or more children. Not Millions. And NO. They do not represent an equivalent rate of deviance with the general population and besides they are held to a different standard as a professional truck drivers who are not allowed to have a blood alcohol level of greater than .04 driving their own cars. http://www.bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html . All religion is a scam. You've been brainwashed. I'm sorry for you.

You will remember this conversation 20 years hence as I recall some of the warnings I've received as a young lad but not quite able to relate at that time.

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are 100% correct the entire time. Anyone who believes what you believe should NEVER under ANY circumstances get married.

Once again, you fail to understand the basic concept of marriage. It isn't about looking inward and seeing what you can gain from the other person. It isn't about wondering if they will cheat on you, or steal from you, or "fall out of love". It isn't about an emotional feeling of happiness that you get.

Marriage is a choice. It is a lifelong choice to choose the other person over everyone else.

You randomly brought up sexual abuse by priests. Organizations have deviants. Every organization does. Do I agree with how it was handled? No. I am the most outspoken critic you will ever meet. In college I actually got my Catholic university investigated under Title IX and Cleary Act violations. They are paying a $100,000 fine because of it. By the way, you are citing a source that has accusations of sexual assault. That doesn't mean they are proved or disproved.

It really feels like you think there is no other option in life. Marriage is wrong 100% of the time and your view is the only view that could ever be correct. You think I'm brainwashed? Yikes. That is a scary position to hold. My fiancee are about to begin a wonderful together. I am really excited.

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"Not Likely", it is actually about 60% of first time marriages that succeed. So it seems actually "most likely".

There are really two things that I see in your arguments that are preposterous to me. #1: You believe that no decision that you make can be lifelong. It really seems like you don't believe in long term decisions and that things will inevitably change. #2: You believe that your marriage is totally and completely out of your control. What the other person does is beyond you and you had no effect on them.

If you believe either of those, marriage will seem awful. You don't want any sort of long term relationship because you don't believe in anything long term. You also don't want to work for the other person in the relationship. I am an A plus husband because I put her first. When you make that decision, things go great! She is an A plus wife because she puts me first. It isn't complicated and when you really think about what you want, it isn't even that hard. We have made plenty of tough decisions for the other person and I could not be happier doing it.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Critical thinking and analytical skills are part of the MBA program correct? No decision I make can be lifelong so long as another human being's decision can effect the outcome of my decision. Again, marriage is a gamble with half your income and assets that she'll love you forever, OR, that you'll want her to.

There is only so much you can do to affect the feelings of another. Do you understand the woman's perspective on love? When she wants to cash in her chips because she fell in love with someone else, how are you going to feel about it? How will you be able to change her mind? What can I do to change your mind right here right now? So far no good hey? I will your favorite color to be light grey. I really will it. So is your favorite color light gray yet?

So you want to be a slave to someone? What if you get tired of putting her first? What if you support a family for the next 20 years and you want a boat? But she doesn't?

Speaking of boats grass hopper. Though I've heard plenty of times, "the two best days in a boat owner's life is the day he acquires the boat, and the day he sells it." At the time I heard this it meant nothing to me. I bought a boat. It was great. Now I live for the day I can get rid of the thing. I did have fun with it. But it turns into a chore after a while. The honeymoon is long over. Have you heard that saying about a couple bickering in public for example? "Gee, their honeymoon must be over?" Some day you will understand that saying as well. Do you understand a woman's monthly hormonal cycle? And when they become pre-menapausal? Menapausal? Mid life crisis? Of course you don't. Just like a fruit fly doesn't understand winter. Just like you and I don't understand ice ages. You haven't lived it yet.

Judging by our conversation I'm fairly certain you're female, or a divorce lawyer or both. Rejoice. Gay marriage is going to pick up the slack that any damage "Men on Strike" has done. Have you read the book? Seems a shame one would go through an MBA program to increase his odds of success not understanding how a marriage gone bad can undo it all. 60% success rate hey? So why am I wishing you luck? You have a better than 50% chance it all will work out.

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lol. Because I believe in marriage I must be a female divorce lawyer. I tell ya man. You crack me up.

You compare a woman and a boat. The two are completely different. I don't get married to "have alot of fun with it". I get married because it is a choice to choose the other person first. It is about more than fun because I want more than fun in my life. I want commitment, loyalty, children, a loving family, etc.

There is actually quite a bit you can do to manage the feelings of others. In fact, you are the #1 reason she feels well or ill about you. You keep bringing up hundreds of examples of how it could potentially fail. Anybody can do that. You use the example of a boat ruining your life/marriage. If you believe a boat is worth more than the mutual happiness within your relationship... don't. get. married.

I get it. I really do. You want fun and happiness and freedom. You will never feel good in a marriage. So... Don't...

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[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Old geezer, I have lived. I've lived a decent amount of time. You keep trying to pull this age bullshit to keep putting me down. It's annoying and frustrating. Stick to the argument instead of character attacks about how little I know.

I GET IT. YOU DON'T WANT COMMITMENT.

I GET IT. THE MARRIAGE COURTS ARE FLAWED.

You are right. You can go around and tell someone that you refuse the legal status of marriage. That's fine. Want to warn people against it? Great! Do that! But telling someone that they will never make it long term with someone, telling them that they are better off just leaving whenever anything gets rough, telling them that at the very least the symbolic act of joining together for a lifetime is wrong is just plain a crock of shit.

I get it. It didn't work out for you. She left you for whatever reason. You at least write that it wasn't your fault in the slightest. OK. That's fine. Someone that once was madly in love with you, that wanted to spend the rest of their life with you, on their own accord decided they didn't want to be around you at all and you had nothing to do with it. Sure.

I can indeed assure you that you will not find love and commitment when you are not willing to give commitment. I can 100% guarantee that no one will ever be with you forever when you won't make that choice for them.

Can you have children? Anybody can do that. Can you be a supportive family? Probably not. The stats don't lie. Separated and divorced parents are not optimal by any means for raising a child.

Family can be whatever you want... you clearly don't want it to be a marriage.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're a female aren't you? I don't think you get it. I don't think you think you get it. Otherwise you wouldn't keep saying you get it. That is your argument? Marriage if nothing else is a symbolic gesture and this is what you're betting your future on? My telling someone that this symbolic act of joining together for a lifetime is wrong is a crock of shit? Since when is marriage the symbolic act of joining for a lifetime? First of all, the marriage rate is declining. Fewer and fewer people are opting for it. It's a legal act that is not just symbolic, it's signing a contract with the state government that you will be responsible for a female and any child she bares. You're making a air tight deal with the government who doesn't want to be responsible for this woman and any children she bares. That's not symbolism, that's fact. You've read how many college books? You make the assumption the books you read are reasonably accurate? Read the book "Men on Strike" By Dr. Helen Smith. See /r/killmarriage for other great reference material.

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm gonna have some fun with you. Cause why the hell not! I am a 23 year old male. I've mentioned it numerous times in the post and talking with you, but hell that's ok.

You say the exact same thing over and over and over again like you didn't just say it. You keep referencing the same works without actually citing any points from them beyond rhetoric. "Go read this and you will understand, but I won't explain much". You rarely use statistics or psychological studies and when you do, you veer away from the really quickly. You literally say the exact same thing over and over again. Don't believe me? Here are the numbers for every time you mentioned one of these in a separate post!...

Dr. Helen Smith/divorce corp... 7
/r/killmarriage, /r/divroce... 5
mention how experienced you are... 7
mentioned 50 % end in divorce... 8
mentioned wife having an affair/with other man... 7
mentioned having to support a bastard child... 6
belittled my education/experiences... 13
losing half your income/having to support a woman... 12
falling out of love/loveless/familiarity breeds contempt... 13

Let me write a paragraph for you.

Grasshopper, how can you know something will work out if you haven't done it yet? You spent all this time learning with your MBA but you don't know anything in the world. How sad. But hey, look at me. I've been through it and I know so much about it.

Have you read Dr. Helen Smiths "men on strike"? It's a great read. Watch Divorce Corp too. That's a good movie. You can even go onto /r/divorce and /r/killmarriage and learn all about how much marriage sucks.

What's going to happen is your woman will stop loving you cause women are fickle. They are too emotional and unpredictable and you won't have fun with them anymore. They will run off with someone else, take half your money, you will be forced to support them, and you will even have to pay child support on the child they have with their other lover! The divorce court is a trap to screw you over.

Marriage isn't about commitment or love or anything else. It is a legal obligation for you to give money to them. Don't be so dumb as to sign your life over to them. Take control and don't commit. If you change your mind, find someone else. It's cheaper and easier.

It's very flattering to hear you speak. You know everything. I know nothing. Your marriage failed so every marriage will fail. Trust those two sources cause they are everything! Marriage is loveless.

I'm sorry for your loss.

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[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am a 23 year old male. I've mentioned it numerous times in the post and talking with you, but hell that's ok.

It's tough to debate anything when there is no moving forward. You sir are a dense mother fucker.

Great... Women are the actual ones to go to the court house. That is an interesting statistic that requires much more studying. Is it because they are more aggressive, they are the ones asking, do men become passive when faced with loss? Who knows! We don't.

You already mentioned the child molestation part multiple times.

You already mentioned she just doesn't "feel" multiple times.

Men and women are equally logical. This has been proven in multiple psychological studies throughout time. They are logical and emotional in different ways and for different things, but it is a farce to suggest they are simply irrational.

If I were to say to you that you were irrational, would you take that as a compliment? Oh what the hell. You are irrational. It's not bashing. It's just a fact. Right?

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There is no book on how to make a marriage succeed because the heart wants what the heart wants. Ever hear that song, "Lost that Loving Feeling"? Women have to feel week in the knees for you in order for them to allow you to enter there body.

So at some point between 23 and 18 you had sex with a female and now you want to marry her? Despite the fact most marriages and relationships fizzle out at about the 7 year mark? Have you read the book "7 Year Itch"? Or too busy with those MBA books? I'm not saying that your fiancee' doesn't mind her future children to include your DNA, and that you're aren't a decent gamble as a future provider, I'm just saying you have about 5 more years of lusty love with this woman and at that point she's going to lay the "I love you , I'm just not 'in-love' with you" schpiel on you. Are you prepared for that? Both emotionally and financially?

[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again, love is a feeling for you. It is an emotion that you feel from day to day and nothing else. It is a feeling just like happiness. You think I had sex with my fiancee and that is why she wanted to marry me? Sure, if love was all about feelings, sex would be a huge part of it. Sex might be the epitome of a relationship for you.

You keep demeaning my education. You just keep at it. It's like you have it in your head that you are 10x smarter than me and that I know nothing. Arrogance is not a great perspective to bring to any discussion.

The difference between you and I is the desire. I desire a deep and passionate relationship. I desire a long term partner that will care and provide for me in the good times and the bad. You desire a flame. A passionate sexual encounter. You want a laugh and some fun. When that dries up, you want out.

Am I prepared for her falling out of love? Absolutely! I have "fallen out" multiple times in our relationship already. Some months I don't feel passionate. So instead I try to show love in other ways (cooking, cleaning, gifts, etc). I don't stop giving because I stop feeling.

I've mentioned this numerous times before. You should never, ever get married. You don't care about the long term. You want the here and now, the glitter and bling, you want something that you can gain from. Marriage is about giving. It is a constant act of a gift of self.

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm talking about the love a woman has for you. You can't control whether she has it for you or not. Heads she wins, tails you lose. She falls out of love with you and by then, she will have quit her job to stay at home with the kids. You'll pay child support and alimony. Tails you stay married forever and become numb with boredom.

But no matter. You seem pretty confident this woman won't fall out of love with you. Or fall deeper in love with someone else. I have the same level of education. It's no substitute for experience. I didn't learn about the dirty tricks hedge funds played with the market because they weren't invented yet. So your finance calculations are nearly useless in valuing stocks. I didn't know about the scam the US family court system is at the time I earned my MBA either. But I guess you'll have to sign that marriage license and cross your fingers.

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[–]Krigerlifestyle1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Interesting theory. I wish you would elaborate on it with psychological studies, statistics, data and what have you. It seems like your hypothesis, and inevitably your conclusion is: Women are irrational.

Not only do you make an aggressive hypothesis that bashes women, but you make another one to build yourself up. Men are rational.

That is a very interesting hypothesis. Let's see if we can find a study on that. BAM! That was easy enough. Let me write a small synapsis for you.

Men are slightly smarter than women at cognitive functions including rational. Women beat men at other subjects such as foreign language. However, and this is a great line...

in normal daily life, there's not much real difference between a man.. and a woman

It even goes on to describe how men have higher volatility! Men are smarter and dumber than women at the same time. Yikes. In essence, men can be more or less rational than women depending on the person and only slightly has an advantage overall.

The other assumption you make is fantastic as well. You are suggesting that divorce happens because of "lusty love" craved only by the woman. That might make sense if men didn't cheat more often than women. In fact, men cheat on average more than 30% more often than women.

Whew.

You keep telling me that I don't understand a woman's perspective. Have you ever wondered if it was possible that you don't know it?

[–]WTF77777771 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]WTF77777770 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]jurtis-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Krigerlifestyle 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Lurked for a while, my experience with TRP
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	113
Date	June 9, 2014 1:22 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/27nth1/lurked_for_a_while_my_experience_with_trp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/lurked-for-a-while-my-experience-with-trp.16466 https://theredarchive.com/post/16466

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