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What It Is Like To Go To War by Karl Marlantes

brookfueledsheld

November 30, 2014

4 upvotes

I have been reading "What It Is Like To Go To War" by Karl Marlantes. This is a very interesting book in a number of ways and one that I would recommend, especially to any young men who are struggling with the question 'can I be a man if I do not go to war?' - as I have struggled and still occasionally do struggle with that question.

The first few chapters mostly answer the question implied by the title - what is it like to go to war? The chapters towards the end of the book interested me even more than those first chapters, interesting though they were. In particular Marlantes discusses the 'Club' of war veterens and makes the assertion that that Club, nor any other club for that matter, should equate with Manhood. Manhood is Manhood - clubs are useful for enabling men to continue to grow and contribute to their community throughout their lives.

This observation has refreshed me - and guys whatever your background I would at least recommend you take a look at this book.

I want to put this review into the Manosphere and hope that guys read the book and take it's messages (of which there are alot of - all of them worth taking in) to heart.

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Post Information

Title	What It Is Like To Go To War by Karl Marlantes
Author	brookfueledsheld
Upvotes	4
Comments	44
Date	November 30, 2014 7:36 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2nv7q0/what_it_is_like_to_go_to_war_by_karl_marlantes/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/what-it-is-like-to-go-to-war-by-karl-marlantes.25582 https://theredarchive.com/post/25582

Comments

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]brookfueledsheld[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]FaithfulJinn 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]sir_wankalot_here -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]UsernameIWontRegret 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FaithfulJinn 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AchillesOtherLeg 6 points6 points6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]brookfueledsheld[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]AchillesOtherLeg1 points 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]brookfueledsheld[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Inherently beta. Ok. Retards who can't get jobs. Right.

It's rare to see someone as terrified of the military as you are. Yeah, that's all it is. You're chickenshit terrified. Don't know fuck all about the military, but sit there in judgement of everyone in uniform. Just admit it, to yourself of course, because your hamster is fission powered and it shows. Your ignorance is the source of your fear, so you try to make them look stupid so you can feel justified and better about yourself.

Here's a hint, the entire military isn't barely aware halfwits, but the infantry is. Upon reflection, you're right to be scared, because 11B is probably the only thing you'd qualify for. That's what the Army infantry MOS is, and they have the lowest ASVAB score requirements in the entire military. Look on the bright side, it's possible you wouldn't qualify for the Army at all.

[–]AchillesOtherLeg2 points 11 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

It pisses me off every time I see someone attempting to conflate masculinity with pledging yourself to kill and die for our psychopathic governments. We might as well tell young men to shoot themselves in the face after burning any savings they might have. It's fucking awful advice in a place where many potentially fucked up guys looking for a way to man up are going to look. It's predatory, even evil, so fuck it with a big stick.

I don't need hints from you and I sure as shit don't need your sad attempt at trolling me with "OOOooo you're scared". You have no idea what I'm ignorant or knowledgeable about so your opinion of me is worth precisely fuck all. Why don't you stop trying to belittle me and explain whats so fucking alpha about becoming a low paid killing machine in service of TPTB?

The fact is that anyone with skills qualifying them for anything more than bullet catching is more highly paid and respected OUT of uniform.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, it pisses you off because you are timid, afraid, and unwilling to act. Your hostility is because you see it as me impuning your manhood, but really calling you afraid is not an assault on your masculinity. Everyone is afraid at some point, the difference is how you deal with it. You try to hide it by spouting off about evil gubermint and baby killing mouth breathers. It's as plain as the text on the screen that your hamster has gone to plaid. You're so vehemently against it, because you're hiding something you feel disgusted about.

Gay hating republicans in the closet do the same thing. You protest too much. You hate yourself because you're scared, so you try to make yourself look better than everyone else to alleviate the self loathing. You think to yourself, "I could never do that" and then try to assuage the guilt you feel for being timid by lashing out at anyone who joins the military.

It's obvious because your ignorance of the military pervades your writing, you have no idea what it's like so you stay in your echo chamber and shout.

I've seen the evil gubermint from the inside, and evil isn't even close. Inept, incapable, incoherent, self absorbed, and ignorant is what government is. I'm surprised most politicians can walk and find their ass with both hands. People like you elect them, then you bitch about how evil they are.

You my friend are a follower. Embrace it, be it, because you simply lack the will to be anything else. It's not a bad thing, the world needs followers, not everyone can blaze a trail, go boldly into the breach and carve out a new road and civilization. Stay home and wait, it suits you.

[–]AchillesOtherLeg0 points 11 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're not very good at this. It's readily apparent your limited intellect results in simple anger. This is you in the green shirt at 24 seconds. The military is a tool, and it has been used inappropriately for as long as there have been armies. It's the bloodied hand of political will, there is no question about that.

Your fear blinds you from the simple fact that politicians are put in place and entrusted with our best interests.

Your naivete about human nature and the willingness of others to subjugate you by force, take from you at will, and enslave you by force or threat of force, which your only protection comes from the military raised by your country. If you've grown up in a place bereft of conflict you have a false sense of security.

We live in an age where open war is so destructive to all parties, but mostly any who oppose the US industrial might, that we have had no major conflicts since 1945. Between the former Soviet Union and the USA, open warfare has become rare if not entirely extinct. What you have is land grabs, civil unrest, and oil profiteering and protection rackets.

If you had lived in Poland between 1940 and 1989 you would likely not have such a view. If you were Chinese, Korean, or from the Philippines and alive between 1936 and 1945 you would undoubtedly hate war but be thankful so eone was willing to come save your ass, risking their own lives to do it.

The world watched in 2003 as they did in 1991, expecting a big fight and a "river of American blood" but what they saw was a smaller force utterly obliterating and disrupting a numerically larger force in mere days. 91 was almost justified, but mostly about oil and not wanting Iraq to have Kuwait share. 03 was nothing more than an attempt to profit from Iraq, both due to the US military industrial complex and oil, with Cheney profiting personally from no bid contracts to companies he is a shareholder in.

The world watched, nobody wants to be Iraq, nobody wants to piss off the USA. The chances of having another war started by a contemporary Arch Duke Ferdinand type bullshit event are slim to none, because self lighting glass top parking lots await the belligerent. The overwhelming force of the USA doesn't dissuade small groups of fanatics, because they employ people of limited intellect and education to do their bidding, and religious zealots to martyr themselves. But, large scale war will not happen as long as there is a huge bully with a smile and a nuclear stick that doesn't need to be used because he has rocks he can throw with pinpoint accuracy.

All of that has enabled you to have a safe life, no threat of being killed or enslaved by an invading army, which allows you to have such an ignorant myopic view and opinion. Simply put, military people do the shit you're to afraid to do, so that you don't have to.

Hell, you might not be smart enough to understand that, and know next to nothing about human history and how often political figures plunged the world into death and destruction on a whim. That you blame the military displays that ignorance and lack of intellect quite well.

[–]AchillesOtherLeg 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's like being savaged by a koala bear with an F in history.

There is no equivalence between honourably defending your nation from unprovoked aggression and wandering around the world like a drunk with a shotgun peeling off rounds into the faces of women and children.

Most of the war around the world is actually attributable to US foreign policy - an indefensible series of corporate backed wars for profit aided by a two faced .gov publicly telling people that they are the worlds defenders of peace that keep us all safe while conducting programs to destabilise other countries, generate conflict and manufacture flimsy pretences to justify what can correctly be classed as genocide.

Do you have any idea how many millions of dead civilians US policy is responsible for? What is your excuse for invading all these countries? What legitimate interests does the US have to defend outside its own borders? Anyone can find a small group of agitators, throw them a pile of guns and then cry about assisting our 'allies', that shit is nothing but a crowbar.

The fact is that none of the military adventurism you laud makes anyone in the west safer. We're already safe owing to our nuclear arsenals and our economic power. We only have grunts for piracy. The only thing your wars of aggression do is stoke up a universal and well justified hatred of the anglosphere. Your idea that the military keeps an ungrateful populace safe is obviously just state issued propaganda that you've swallowed and now vomit up whenever you run into one of the many millions of people in the world who recognise bullshit when they see it.

Military people do what they're told so that they can pick up a check. If that involves murdering people that pose no threat whatsoever to their own country then they're fine with that. A truly brave soldier would shoot his officer in the face the next time he received orders to commit treason but you're staffed by a bunch of spineless fucking cowards who probably couldn't function without a ball stomping air force to cower behind.

You sir are a coward of the worst sort, the kind that thinks himself brave by sheer dint of self delusion.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Other than assuming it takes bravery or some sort of bravado, you are correct about we show for a check. Mostly anyway. Some idiots want to go kill brown people, think the like war, and want to be a hero, but they either never get to or simply get killed for being stupid.

I like fucking with people, and arguing online amuses me. I'm bored with fucking with you now. Really we agree on most things we've discussed despite me fucking with you, and we agree about the wannabe badasses entirely, they aren't. Know what irritates me the most? These wannabe halfwits who wish they could be navy seals or some other special forces type. They never join, but try to think they are something they aren't. I've known lots of cops and pizza delivery boys like that. The really worthless ones end up mall cops or something useless to everyone. They will have fake dog tags, pow/mia flags and stickers, wear camouflage and most likely have a bunch of guns, but never even talk to a recruiter. The worst wear the uniform and try to pass themselves off as veterans. How fucking pathetic do you have to be to do something like that?

I was a cargo guy, I loaded aircraft with all sorts of shit. We did humanitarian missions more often than you ever hear about. We had morons with bravado, there was a reason they weren't in a "combat job" where they kick in doors and shit. They would just get someone killed. It's not a place for the phoney brave and fake tough.

The thing you probably don't know is most military jobs are like mine, moving shit. Logistics is a far bigger thing than combat. The Berlin Airlift is one of the times in history when logistics prevented war. The airlift fed the city when Kruschev tried to starve them out and motivate Berliners to join the communists. Iran had an earthquake right before we invaded Iraq on fucking Bush's orders, and we went there to deliver humanitarian aid. Nobody heard about it because we're supposed to hate Iran.

We definitely agree that the military is horribly missed and rife with the idiot wannabes. The religious nuts are a big part of the problem, they justify bigotry with their beliefs and think themselves above other religious nuts with a different color skin and language but the same invisible sky daddy. My experience in the military was enough to sour me on government, religion, nationalism, and everything that encompasses. We disagree on some things, no doubt, but I'm bored. Want to argue about something else?

[+]sir_wankalot_here -7 points-6 points-5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

The marxist comments on this post are amusing. First thing to note is the nature of war has changed, even as recently as 100 years ago the risks both the king or hos soldiers where about the same.

To answer the question.

'can I be a man if I do not go to war?'

Short answer no. You will never know how a man will react till he has all the chips on the table. The guy who looks big and tough, when the chips are down he might be the one crying like a baby. The small wimpy looking guy he might the the one who grabs the ball and runs.

Until recent times you did not get the rights of a man until you had proven yourself as a warrior. For Rome, after you served 20 years in the legions, you got a citizenship and 20 acres of land. Citizenship was not given by birth right. When it started to be given by birth right, that is when the Empire went to shit.

[–]AchillesOtherLeg 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This sentiment needs more than anything else to have a fucking bullet put into it.

The answer gentlemen is that you absolutely can be a man without going to war. What kind of man would allow someone to tell him that his manhood is contingent upon service? An easily led man is who.

I can see the pro military guys on here accusing other men of fear or trying to suggest that they are not men because they haven't been 'tested'. This is horseshit, any man will fight given a good reason but uncle sams requirements and a regular check just don't make for a compelling reason.

I would add that Marxists require a strong state packed with unquestioning soldiers ready to shit on their own people in order to maintain power. You want blue pill white knights? Look at orgs like the police or the military.

[–]sir_wankalot_here 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would add that Marxists require a strong state packed with unquestioning soldiers ready to shit on their own people in order to maintain power. You want blue pill white knights? Look at orgs like the police or the military.

Where do you get this idea from ? For the Soviet Union, Nazis or 3rd world nation the primary motive to become a cop or military is financial. For the Soviet Union depending on the branch of military service the cops and soldiers got all the good stuff, where first priority for housing etc.

3rd world nations, the cops make money from extortion. A few cops I know officially make $400 a month. Somehow they support a legal wife and three mistresses, and when they are not with the wife or mistresses they are in the girly bar or looking for a new mistress.

3rd world soldiers. How do you think all of the US military foreign aide ends up on the black market ?

Even USA, the salaries of cops has gone up, the danger of being a cop has gone down. Not included in the salaries of the cops is the huge pension plans they get. A lot of the debt in California is caused by the pensions of cops and firefighters.

[–]brookfueledsheld[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I've been to war, two of them, five times total. It's not the point of my life where I felt like a man. However, military service does provide a rite of passage, something that is rare today. If you have never had a rite of passage, then how can you call yourself a man?

You see the rite isn't about going to war, it's about being tested, enduring something difficult and overcoming it. Primitive cultures had these tests of manhood for a reason. Men are judged by their capabilities, achievements, knowledge, and abilities, not by their looks or by how old, tall, thin, whatever.

I had my rite of passage years before basic training, which was two years before my first war. After all the shit I endured prior, war was a case of been there done that, except for being able to shoot back.

Manhood is about overcoming the tests, and if you haven't been tested physically, mentally, and emotionally, you won't know how to react or what to do when you are.

From this perspective the anti military stance among the young guys on here sure looks like fear. You guys grew up with Iraq on TV,and you have the same perspective as the kids who were sitting at home,etc watching Vietnam on TV. They were scared too, but they had a draft, you guys don't. You're afraid of what "might" happen in your mind, but won't happen in reality. The military only wants people who actually want to be there, not some whiny bitch that will piss his poo ants the first time someone yells at him.

[–]sir_wankalot_here -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What I wanted to say, but I didn't know how.

You see the rite isn't about going to war, it's about being tested, enduring something difficult and overcoming it. Primitive cultures had these tests of manhood for a reason.

In the past to become a citizen, you had to be classified as a warrior. So initially for the Roman Republic you had to serve 20 years in the legion. The rights which the Magna Carta talks about, they only applied to warriors.

From this perspective the anti military stance among the young guys on here sure looks like fear.

A veteran has the balls to stand up to BS.

In US history, increased amounts of workers rights always came after a major war. The US revolution, civil war, WW1 and WW2. After WW2 something like 25% of the population where veterans. The men came back from WW2, they said it should be the right of every man to have a good paying job, afford a house and have a car. The elites said it isn't possible, the men from WW2 hit the streets. All of a sudden it became possible.

The decline of workers rights started to happen around the late 1970s early 1980s. Why ? The average age of a WW2 veteran in 1945 was like 25. So by the 1980s these guys would be 65 and retiring from the workforce.

By the 1980s they started to ship jobs overseas, Reagan legalized 200k illegal immigrants and shit like that. Why am I against immigrants, because they are getting a free ride.

Blacks volunteered for both WW1, WW2 and Korea. Before affirmative action from 1900 till the 1960s with no outside interference Black wages where naturally equalizing with White wages. 1960s hit it ground to a halt.

Blacks on average might have a lower IQ then whites, but they took high paying jobs that required physical strength. So a lot of nurses used to be black. Truck drivers, bus drivers etc used to be black. The good jobs blacks used to have become low paying jobs and they where replaced by inmigrants.

A country needs elites to run stuff, but there needs to be a balance. That balance in the past was veterans.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Fighting for your country is not "beta". It's not weak.

Here are the words of Marine Core major general Smedley Butler; winner of two Medal of Honors:

"War is a racket... No one mentioned to them that their going and their dying would mean huge war profits"; it's dramatized, but they're all quotes from his book.

Fighting for your country is not "beta"

Soldiers do not fight for their country; they fight for their government's interests. Who makes up the government? Wealthy politicians, the corporations than fund their elections, and the corporations interests.

Give your vets respect. They've earned it.

No they really haven't. Since WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, and Iraq have been nothing, but wastes of money.

It sucks that they were dumb enough to go overseas and get crippled, but that doesn't make the wars or their actions anything worthwhile.

Unquestionably so

Similarly have U.S. actions in the middle east made the world safer? This is an opinion, but our wars have only fueled terrorism and general anger at the U.S.

[–]sir_wankalot_here -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Read exactly what Medley is saying. The guy isn't bitter, he had a life full of adventure. His most famous quote is this one.

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

The guy is actually boasting. Al Capone you are a fucking pussy. The best you could do was Chicago.

What is rather shocking is the price of muscle has gone up drastically. This is a strong indication of the pussification of a lot of western countries. In the past most night clubs would pay their bouncers minimum wage, a few free drinks and what pussy they could score. A lot of large military guys would moonlight as bouncers.

One guy who was a bouncer was claiming they make over $40 per hour just to stand at the door. He was laughing at the idea of a $20 tip to jump the line.

Bouncer, cops, military guy, security, you are just hired muscle. Management wants some asshole removed, you remove the asshole as efficiently as possible.

[–]Waldo00 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]waldo888 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]waldo888 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think most people pay their taxes because they believe in the value and purpose of civilization. Regardless of how butchered and corrupt the government has become I believe this is the core premise of taxes and the government. To truly believe that you pay your taxes to avoid jail, is almost unbelievably base. It shows such a complete lack of understanding of what true leaders of civilizations are trying to do. And to say chump think they are only helping old ladies and single moms means you hang out with dimwits. And this further lends credence to all the preceding arguments against the military and masculinity. You sir are actually arguing in favor of being a thug...paid muscle, no moral or ideological code...no honor...just a thug. This whole post instead should be "can you be man without having a modicum of intelligence."

[–]yeahweewee -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]brookfueledsheld[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link