This post is not meant to pass judgment on anything except society, y'all.

I'm a little older, and just had the experience of living outside the US for several years. Part of it was in a sharia law country where women have almost no legal rights and are basically property (but are getting access to education and as a result are refusing marriage now). The other part was in a feminist Utopia in Europe.

Coming back to the US, I'm a bit dismayed by what I see. When I was first reading here, my reaction was, "if you only value women based on their looks, you will get narcissistic, low value women and of course your theories about women will be proven correct."

After being back in the US for a while, I'm seeing how women are doing this to themselves. When women put all their focus on appearance, they turn into narcissistic and shallow, low-value humans.

In the sharia law country, women wear heavy makeup that takes as much as 3 hours to put on. They are almost obsessive about image, brands, appearance, beauty. Because? Because in their society this is their only value. When they lose their youth, their husbands can take a younger wife. They put no focus on who they are, because no one cares. The women who do care about who they are? They're marrying western men, or staying single.

A second part of this is what I learned from living in the feminist Utopia. First of all, the men were effeminate and every single one set off my gay-dar, which doesn't even work very well. Second of all, women had gained more rights... by giving more rights to men.

This is an extremely important distinction that American feminists do not understand. They're undermining themselves by trying to punish men. If you are a woman and you want to be paid equally? Then you must give fathers paid paternity leave. You have to make custody arrangements fair. You have to support yourself and not take alimony or child support. Dads have to have the same ability to leave work when their kids are sick that women have. You have to be rational and fair whether you stay married or not. You have to be able to support yourself if you're going to have kids. In feminist land, women don't have an expectation for being supported by men.

If dad has fair custody, and can leave work to help care for the kids, then mom can stay at work an equal number of hours... And not be paid a wage that is adjusted for the fact that she is leaving to care for kids at a disproportionate rate.

My own opinion on this? This means kids are being cared for by a parent who is less supported by nature to be nurturing, and the parent who is least able to compartmentalize and stay focused is remaining at work. I would take lower pay as a trade off for working fewer hours - but we all know that feminism is the enemy of logic so women always end up punishing themselves. But that is their choice, I suppose. (The happiest women in the world are the Dutch, who work around 30 hrs a week and are paid accordingly.)

The third thing that I liked in the feminist Utopia was that women were well-groomed. They typically kept their hair quite long, with simple hair styles. They wear classy looking but simple wardrobes, lots of mix and match with just a few basic staple items. They wear little or no makeup - you never see this "contour" crap on the street. They aren't self-obsessed about looks or aging, and they don't focus on looks as part of their intrinsic value - but they do focus on staying slim for health.

Don't go running off to this place. The men are still effeminate and the society is still unbalanced towards women. Everyone pays extremely high taxes so that the state can support all the single moms who don't make enough money (it seems we have to make a choice between a strong family or a strong nanny state - a la Molyneux). But there's a lot American women could learn from there.

My overall point is that when the focus is on appearance, that is the only value women will have.

As an aside, commercialism is very strong in the two appearance-focused countries, and almost nonexistent in the one that isn't focused on appearance or brands.

For men who aren't ready to go MGTOW, another option is to reject women who focus on appearance. I don't mean the fourth wave feminist "you have to love fatties!" I mean, set a standard for women who focus on emotional/mental self improvement and on health (good health is thin and has good skin).

As for myself? I have a very beautiful teenage daughter who is thin, healthy, athletic, studious with strong goals in a STEM field - but is choosing a career that will allow her to be a mom, too (she can reenter after absences and work part time if she chooses). She dresses well for her figure, but in simple clothes and no makeup. She's built better than a goddamned Barbie doll. No brand clothes. She was very influenced by life in the country I mentioned above. And she comes home and says, "why are boys never interested in me?" It's a good question. The girls are acting as they do in part because that is what boys pay attention to. She feels pressure to dress provocatively and wear heavy makeup if she wants a boyfriend. I keep trying to tell her that the boys who choose based on that are lousy, but that the good guys will work up the courage soon. I hope this is true. So far she says "if someone doesn't like me as I am, then I don't need them in my life". I hope she can stay true to this with all the social pressure around her. She is pretty lonely since we moved back. Her only friend with similar values is a girl from a conservative Indian immigrant family. This makes me sad for her, and for America in general.

Are there still men around who want to be married forever and have a strong family? Am I sending my daughter into the weeds? Should I export her to a different country?

Women select by status. Men can choose to select on natural beauty and on personality/behavior. MGTOW is a natural response to fourth wave feminism, social Marxism, and vapid consumerism that places all value on a woman's image and not who she is. But I see a balance here. I see men paying all their attention to the most vapid women, selecting for narcissism in their mate choices. Men can put a lot of social pressure back on women with their mate choices - if they want a mate. But I think a future with segregated sexes is a bleak one. Most of my growth as an adult has been forced by the crucible of marriage. When you're committed to making it work and you do what it takes to make that happen, it changes who you are for the better. But it takes two people who are dedicated to doing it. I know very few people at all who are willing.

We ALL have to do better. Or we're all going to do so much worse.