A feminist debates with MRAs. IMO much better than most feminists, who just go, "Incel lol." but still misses so much.

Hi everyone as the title says I'm a feminist looking to have a friendly debate/discussion. I'm not here to scream "Y'ALL ARE WRONG MEN SHOULD DIE" so I hope y'all don't do the same at me lol! (Seriously though, rude comments will be ignored). Fair warning that English is not my first language. I am also not well versed in US politics or issues since I am from southeast Asia. This is going to be a long post so TLDR at the bottom!

So I've been looking through this subreddit out of curiosity, and I think my biggest issue is that y'all deny that men's rights issues do not stem from patriarchy (and I want to argue against that). I'm looking for (constructive) input and different perspectives!

Let's establish what's patriarchy first . The wikipedia definition is very straightforward: Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property. (Some people have said that Wikipedia isn't a reliable source but I wanted to be unbiased and Wikipedia has the most agreed upon definition).

Contrary to popular belief, the concept of patriarchy does NOT mean that ALL men are the oppressors who hold power, or that ALL women are oppressed. Let's break this down: The expectation of men to have primary power does not mean that they are privileged, infact it means the opposite. Expectations of power means certain expectations of other traits, such as leadership, aggresiveness, stoicness and material ownerships. Associating maleness with all these things deprives women of their own autonomy in these areas. Meanwhile, femaleness is associated with submission to that primary power, which entails expectations like reproduction, emotion/expression and family. Women hold power over men in these aspects, depriving men of their autonomy too.

So do men actually hold primary power? NO they are expected to. Remember that the patriarchy is describing a social system, not a "hard truth". So are men responsible for patriarchy? NO! Is everyone responsible for upholding patriarchal values? YES!

So why do most feminists ignore this fact and seem to advocate for women alone? Statistically, men are known to be more violent than woman, which makes people focus on women's issues, as they are perceived as more oppressed. Men's issues are neglected because they don't occur at the same frequency or have the same marketability, as violent crimes against women (which also makes a much more sensationalist headline). This isn't to say women can't be violent too, it simply means that people perceive men to be more violent due to largely reported numbers.

So looking at the concept of patriarchy from a female-centric view (by focussing on women's issues alone) throws men who are oppressed by that same patriarchy, under the bus. This isn't a contest and we should not focus on who is more oppressed. Ultimately, both women and men experience certain priviliges and oppresions due to patriarchy.

Now there's been ALOT of bashing against the concept of patriarchy in this subreddit because it's a huge part of feminist theory. I completely understand that many people on here do not agree with feminism because if their experiences with feminists, and that's totally valid. However, it should be worth noting that feminist theory should not be judged so quickly based on a bunch of people on the internet trending the hashtag #menaretrash. I can assure y'all that the people who say this are either not well versed in feminist theory or displacing their aggresion that's stemming from trauma (I'm not justifying their actions here, simply offering an explanation, their actions are wrong). I call myself "feminist" because I agree with the concepts behind the theory, not because I advocate for women alone and i I try not too look at these concepts from a female-centric perspective (Hence, this post to understand your perspectives).

The concept of patriarchy isn't just a part of feminist theory though, and as many people seem to assume, it's not a concept that's been "made up" by feminists and only supported by anectodal evidence. It is a sociological concept first and foremost, meaning that it is a theory that sums up patterns of social interactions that has been observed within society and studied by many! And yes, theories change overtime, especially sociological theories because society changes over time.

So what does patriarchy have to do with men's rights? Everything! As I pointed out before, the patriarchy reinforces gender roles (maleness is associated with leadership, aggresion, stoicness, material ownership, etc while femaleness is associated with submission, reproduction, family, emotion, expression, etc). Historically speaking, gender roles stem from our biological differences, but in the age where we have technology to make up for our short comings, whether man or woman, we are equally capable, rendering gender roles as a biproduct of social systems rather than a necessity.

Let me give a few examples of men's issues that has commonly been discussed in this subreddit and how the patriarchy is behind them:

• men not receiving child custody: the patriarchal society views women (femininity) as more suited towards caring for young, making people lean towards granting women child custody as opposed to a man. This usually means they grant it to the women (regardless of how fit she is to actually take care of the child) and assume that the man will neglect or abuse the child, or will be an incompetent parent, which is unjustified.

• men getting abused/assaulted: the patriarchal society views men as dominant, and thus, violent/aggresive/strong and capable of protecting themselves. They are also perceived to be unaffected by trauma because being emotional is seen as a feminine trait. So people struggle to grasp that men can be abused/assaulted and suffer trauma from such an incident in the first place. Furthermore, men are perceived to more likely BE in the role of an abuser. This also factors in on my next point.

• false rape/assault allegations: The fact that this issue isn't getting discussed more is baffling. False rape allegations are basically people who are taking advantage of the assumption that men are more likely to be in the role of rapist/assaulter because the patriarchy deems men as "dominant", which is synonymous with violent/aggresive. There's also the case of a self-fulfilling prophecy, in which rapists are morely likely to be men (regardless of whether the victim is a women or a man) due to patriarchal expectations of dominance and violence. While statistically, men are more likely to be in this role as opposed to the numbers of false rape allegations recorded, it is still a gross injustice that should be addressed.

• suicide rates among men: the patriarchal society expects men to be "strong" and dominant, and the assumption is made that external events would not affect them (and even if they did, men are expected to hide them and be expressionless). This makes men themselves repress emotions, stunting emotional growth and making them prone to mental illness. It also makes their mental issues undiagnosed (ignored or ridiculed), making them less likely to even seek help in the first place.

• men's body image: another issue that's should be discussed but society decides to gloss over. We see plus size models of women in magazines all the time (and this is a great thing!) but never of men (not so great). The assumption that men should be strong comes with the expectations for men to be physically fit, and not just in a way that seems you healthy but in an extreme way to fit the mold of beauty (this perception is based on the assumption that the man has to please the submissive women with his dominance). As you can see, this leads to body image issues, insecurity, eating disorders and more mental illnesses.

• men are expected to provide for the family and earn more than the women: Men find themselves falling into the role of "leader" because of the centuries long expectation of being the breadwinner, regardless of whether he likes it or is capable of it. It is expected by everyone around him, that he provides for the family. But if he earns less than, or even equal to his wife, he is seen as incapable of "supporting the family", eventhough both men and women have the opportunities to earn for the family (it has to be pointed out here that in most countries, women are not priviliged enough to work, which actually reinforces the role of a man as primary provider. All in all, it's not a fun situation for both of them).

As I pointed out in my last point, notice how certain priviliges enjoyed by man is stemming from the oppresion of women. Notice how the women enjoys priviliges stemming from a man's oppresion. These things are interconnected, and that's what the patriarchy tries to describe. This is what systemic sexism is. It should be noted that oppresion isn't the fault of a priviliged person, but the fault of the societal system (patriarchy), which stems from the values upheld by ALL of society. So instead of playing the blame game, why not focus on dismantling it?

How you ask? Well first, by accepting generalisations for what they are: generalisations. Treating stereotypes like facts is what got us here. Let's allow people to make their own choices instead of placing expectations on them to conform to patriarchal values. This means that it's completely up to the person whether they want to conform to a gender stereotype (such as a man wanting to work in risky careers or a women wanting to be a housewife). The difference is that they CHOOSE this and aren't pressured into it. It also gives people the freedom to choose otherwise (such as a man wanting to be a househusband or a woman wanting to follow risky career paths). Equality isn't about equal distribution of roles among different genders (ie. Same number of men in STEM fields as women) but about equal opportunities (both men and women having the capability to choose their career path without any hindrances).

Anyway, this is all I can think off the top of my head so far. Please feel free to mention any men's issue I missed so I can explain further! Btw, I'm not asking anyone to "change into a feminist". Whether you choose to advocate for women's rights or men's rights is entirely based on your surroundings and experiences, and only our common goal to achieve equality matters. If we can sort out our differences (civilly) and agree on this common goal, then we can focus on the means of reaching it together.

Thank you for taking your time to read until here :)

TL, DR: the patriarchy isn't what you think it is and it's the source of both female and male right's issues in most of society (see my 2nd edit). So we should stop with associating labels (feminist/men's rights activist) with generalized characteristics. Let's just strive towards equality.

Edit: I've added sources for people asking for "proof of the patriarchy". Again, I want to reiterate that this is a theory/concept that has been studied under sociological and psychological fields so I encourage y'all to search it up and learn more. I admit that feminists often look at these concepts from a female-centric perspective, but the scientific research behind it is unbiased (because that's literally a requirement for scientific studies). I also realise now that labels (like "feminist") can be powerful and that the modern feminist movement hasn't brought favourable benefits for everyone. However, I can't deny the benefits that it has brought to others all over the world, and want to continue identifying as a feminist so that I can stand behind the concepts of feminism to advocate for both men's and women's issues.

To the the people who provided constructive criticism, unbiased discussion and different perspectives, thank you. Y'all were awesome and I learned a lot :)

Edit 2: it's come under my attention that some people may be part of social networks that have already dismantled patriarchy, but has some other form of power hierarchy (like the matriarchy). While this is an issue that's less widespread compared to patriarchal social networks, I realize that describing ALL of society as a patriarchy is detrimental to dealing with issues that people in a matriarchy face. So my conclusion: We need to dismantle all forms of power hierarchies (patriarchal or matriarchal) to truly be equal. To the people who say that power hierarchies are "not bad", consider the possibility that you enjoy more priviliges from that system than others do.