I found this post on Fetlife about the role of men and societal norms in regards to dominance and submissiveness. I thought I'd share.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-05-16T09:18:27+00:00

The way gender interacts with the BDSM scene is interesting, but I think that in many ways we're burdened by a false assumption;

The false assumption is that traditional masculine norms have always been about dominance. I don't agree with that proposition (indeed, I'd argue that proposition comes from a radfem understanding of the nature of traditional gender roles).

There have always been submissive components to masculinity - Macho Masochism (enduring pain just to prove how GAAAR MANLY you are) is the obvious one. But there are others - the man is expected to be willing to lay down his life for women. In romance, the man is expected to "woo" women by proving he's capable of being a provider (capable of doing things for her). The entire "courtly love" thing was basically the original form of femdom. Even in a stereotypically "dominant" role, the man is still judged by how well he has "served" the woman - look at all those penis enlargement emails promising you the ability to "satisfy your woman". The man may be the active partner in doing so, but who really calls the shots?

And let us not leave the gays out of this analysis; whereas heterosexual femdom BDSM is all about the White Knight/Dutiful Husband/Happy-Wife-Happy-Life dynamic within traditional masculinity, gay male BDSM typically occurs according to the Macho Dominance Hierarchy dynamics. Older, taller, buffer, gruffer men are generally the doms, the entire gay male leather scene is pretty much a mixture of military norms and a neo-pederasty where young "boys" obey superior "alpha" men for a while and eventually "grow up" and, through pleasing their alphas, become "real men" who now take on "boys" of their own. This entire dynamic is effectively a replication of the fact that traditional male gender norms force males to earn Real Manhood from society, and one particular avenue this is conferred is through father-figures and the approval of the "elders" (no surprise that the most common title for doms in the gay male leather scene is "Daddy").

Submissiveness is commanded by traditional male gender roles on several levels. Lesser men (i.e. men who are not "real men" by social standards) are expected to defer to "real men"/better men/alpha men. Men are expected to defend and satisfy and prove themselves worthy to their women.

In other words, both Femdom-Malesub BDSM and Maledom-Malesub BDSM are in many ways gender-traditional as all fuck. They both represent different facets of traditional masculinity.

Let us look at Femdom too, just to be fair. Most Femdom porn involves the woman being the "passive" partner in the sense that she will (mostly) tend to lie back and order the man around to do stuff for her. Additionally, note how this kind of stuff often involves a lot of penis/testicle torture, orgasm/pleasure-denial and the like. When verbal abuse/humiliation is employed, the insults typically are emasculating towards the male... what is being exercised here?

Its traditional feminine power. Traditional gender roles have given women certain powers; the power to regulate male identity/socially emasculate males, and the power to enlist male agency in one's service! Hence why the female dominant will typically sit back and have him do things for her.

Shit, even in fantasies which are typically seen as submissive, this traditionally feminine power remains. The rape fantasy? Its always some very handsome, dark and powerful man who rapes a woman because he MUST HAVE HER. i.e. her innate feminine specialness and desirability means he will violate the greatest of social taboos in order to have her. He will do ANYTHING for her! Which means he'll go to the ends of the earth, fight off other suitors, etc..

In short, the real problem underlying this discussion is the simplistic equation of "masculinity" and "femininity" with "dominance" and "submissiveness" respectively. Both traditional roles contained aspects of both dominance and submissiveness. Female dominants (of submissive males) are exercising traditional feminine power. Male submissives are reflecting two different traditionally-mandated forms of masculine submission depending on the gender of the dom.

morerokk · 2015-05-16T15:09:42+00:00

Thanks for sharing.

As a male submissive, I constantly get treated like I'm some kind of weird "mistake", as if there's something wrong with me, and that I should "man up". I think dominant women don't get the same stigmas, because society today is more okay with women doing whatever they want. The whole "strong independent woman" thing is being actively encouraged and is pretty well-represented. This is a good thing, but I wish the same were true for submissive men.

Sadly, men are still expected to be dominant alpha males who aren't afraid of taking all of the initiative, whether it's in society, the workplace, or in dating.

2015-05-16T05:23:59+00:00

A lot is missing in men who enjoy vegan diets, but that's because a lot is missing in people who enjoy them.

Anyway, my terrible vegan joke aside, while I can't find a submissive male attractive, I understand why a male might be submissive. I also understand why a female dominant enjoys that role, but I have no desire to take on that role.

Though it does make me uncomfortable when a guy who I think is interesting and romantically attractive is submissive because, yeah, that just won't work with me.

Edit: Maybe I should have mentioned that I am extremely submissive myself, hence why I don't find submissiveness attractive in a man. I don't exactly want to be with another sub...

MRSPArchiver · 2015-05-16T04:23:48+00:00

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Title	I found this post on Fetlife about the role of men and societal norms in regards to dominance and submissiveness. I thought I'd share.
Author	princessluna3000
Upvotes	9
Comments	31
Date	May 16, 2015 4:23 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/364xah/i_found_this_post_on_fetlife_about_the_role_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-found-this-post-on-fetlife-about-the-role-of-men.980126 https://theredarchive.com/post/980126

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