The selfless gender.

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I am a rational atheist, where is the proof of God or the proof that Jesus existed, I have had a terrible experience with priests, the church and my relatives when I told them I was honking of being an atheist, all they want is MONEY

They have an all-powerful, all-knowing, and morally perfect god but they still need MONEY!!!!

God is all-knowing
God knows what you are going to do at any time in the future if he is all-knowing
Therefore, you don’t have free will
Therefore, the Bible is false because it says you have free will but an all-powerful god knows what you are going to do at any time and you have no control over it,

See where the problems arise, god in the Bible stories killed more people than the devil! He is a terrible person and god

Read the Old Testament to see the corruptness by god, Isaiah 13 and LETIVITICUS 20.

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[–]CertainCrow10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

In a sense you're right.. maybe not all Christians are unified on this. Comes down to how much Providence you think God has vs free will. If God forms your character then certainly he had set you in motion and many of your choices will be made based on what your character is and what experiences you face. In that sense sure. I don't take it to mean that you have an excuse for turning right instead of left though. It's a very deep question and one even many Christians have pondered. There is even a verse that says if God has made a vessel doomed to destruction who am I to question. It's his right. I still think we have a choice to acknowledge our conscience and lessons taught etc or not but he does know which choice we will make ahead of time because to one who is outside of time it's already happened.

End of the day even if I don't fully understand this point myself (theologians themselves debate it) doesn't mean God is any less or more real. I don't just throw up my hands and say because it's above my understanding (or maybe just something you could ever prove or know for sure one way or another) and give up or cease to believe

Actually even if you don't believe in God it's still sort of a rabbit trail you could go down. God or no God. Am I set on a certain path because of who I am and experiences I will face? Based on that is there really any other choice? Sure a certain series of events are set in motion. Does that mean you actually had no choice because your choices were based on things set in motion in the past? Destiny and all that. You still love your life as best you can regardless

[–]lopied10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Isaiah 13

16
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
18
Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.

Numbers 31

7
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man.
9
The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.
10
They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.
11
They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,
12
and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
17
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
18
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Jeremiah 19
8
I will devastate this city and make it an object of scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds.
9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.'

Leviticus 20:

9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Hosea 9

12
Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of every one. Woe to them when I turn away from them!
13
I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre, planted in a pleasant place. But Ephraim will bring out their children to the slayer."
16
Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."

So this is a loving God???

[–]CertainCrow10 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All but two of those examples are just poetic words depicting the despair and poverty the people will experience.

The others are hard to understand in the type of society we live in today but yes...The reasoning the Israelites had against this particular group or people was the fact they were known slave traders and their women and seduced their men into worshipping pagan God's.

As for putting to death children disobedient to parents yeah.. was a time when holiness was considered utmost importance and not much was tolerated... Don't know what to say much more than that. Women who slept around were also stoned. Stark contrast to how we live.. much higher standard... Hopefully they didn't always insist on exercising the full extent of the law. Jesus definitely came and challenged that, like when he told those without sin to cast the first stone.

At the end of the day you're sitting there on your soap box trying to judge God or act like if you were God you'd do things so much better. He doesn't need your approval. Yes God isn't just loving and holy.. he's also an angry and jealous God. He's all of the above. Much of the old testament is about God's intolerance of sin. He can't stand it. It sets up what comes later. And yes some of the statements are poetic and some could be exaggerated. Anyways this isn't the right forum for this. I can see we are both pretty set on what we have chosen to believe. I accept God as he is even if old testament God seems harsh

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Old testament had a theme for it. God's holiness and intolerance for sin...it was supposed to seem harsh.. it's the very reason Paul referred to the old testament ad a curse at times. You say he's not loving but he loved people enough to providee another way and sacrificed his own son. And that included for people who were previously stoned to death. You can focus on God's anger in old testament but you'd be missing over half the story and living in the past. Sure it would seem cruel to leave those people pre Jesus to their dates but I covered that.

Anyways peace. I don't know your history.. maybe you'd had a bad run in with some church folk or love some other things in your life too much, or still just searching.. I dunno. Can argue these things but sometimes personal experiences in life have biggest impact on people's faith. Have a good day

[–]lopied11 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Paul is moses

25 Antitypes, similarities between Moses and Paul

Moses 1446 BC

Paul 36 AD

Chosen from birth for special purpose

Saved from Nile

"The daughter of Pharaoh came down to bathe at the Nile, with her maidens walking alongside the Nile; and she saw the basket among the reeds and sent her maid, and she brought it to her." (Exodus 2:5)

From womb

"But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace" (Galatians 1:15)

Outsider "Trojan horse" brought into highest level of inner circle

Foreign Hebrew born in Goshen becomes Pharaoh's son in living in the palaces of Memphis, Thebes, Karnak and the three palaces excavated at Tel el-Dab'a.

"When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”" (Exodus 2:6)

Foreign Cilician born in Tarsus becomes Jerusalem Elite:

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city [of Jerusalem]" (Acts 22:3)

Top education the world had to offer at the time

Wisdom of Egypt:

"The child grew, and she brought him to Pharaoh’s daughter and he became her son. And she named him Moses, and said, “Because I drew him out of the water.”" (Exodus 2:10) "

“Moses was educated in all the learning of the Egyptians, and he was a man of power in words and deeds." (Acts 7:22)

Wisdom of Moses:

"I was… educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today." (Acts 22:3)

"I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen." (Galatians 1:14)

"as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." (Philippians 3:6)

Rejected earthly/fleshly position, riches and prestige for invisible Heavenly treasures by faith enduring the rather and persecution from his former life. Rejected earthly for heavenly

Riches of Egypt rubbish:

"Moses considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward." (Hebrews 11:26)

Riches of Jerusalem rubbish:

"I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ," (Philippians 3:4-8)

Faith took action before directed by God:

Defend against injustice

"Now it came about in those days, when Moses had grown up, that he went out to his brethren and looked on their hard labors; and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his brethren." (Exodus 2:11)

Defend against "false doctrine"

"The high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished." (Acts 22:5)

Murder involved in their conversions

Egyptian:

"So he looked this way and that, and when he saw there was no one around, he struck down the Egyptian and hid him in the sand." (Exodus 2:12)

Stephen:

"When they had driven Stephen out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul." (Acts 7:58)

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest," (Acts 9:1)

Both were rejected as a deliverer by their brethren at first

"And he supposed that his brethren understood that God was granting them deliverance through him, but they did not understand." (Acts 7:25)

Fellow Jews rejected him in Damascus in 36 AD: "When many days had elapsed, the Jews plotted together to do away with him, but their plot became known to Saul. They were also watching the gates day and night so that they might put him to death; but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a large basket." (Acts 9:23-25)

Christians rejected him in Jerusalem in 39/40 AD: "When he came to Jerusalem, he was trying to associate with the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple." (Acts 9:26)

Fellow Jews in 39/40AD: "Jesus said to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.’" (Acts 22:18)

Both were visited by God with a bright light in wilderness

Burning bush in wilderness

"As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;" (Acts 9:3)

Kings tried to kill them

"Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you are to cast into the Nile" (Exodus 1:22)

"When Pharaoh heard of this matter, he tried to kill Moses." (Exodus 2:15)

"In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me, and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands." (2 Corinthians 11:32–33)

Both escaped death through a woven basket

"But when she could hide him no longer, she got him a wicker basket and covered it over with tar and pitch. Then she put the child into it and set it among the reeds by the bank of the Nile." (Exodus 2:3)

"I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands." (2 Corinthians 11:32–33)

Both immediately fled to Mt. Sinai and received instruction

Moses fled to Sinai

"But Moses fled from the presence of Pharaoh and settled in the land of Midian, and he sat down by a well." (Exodus 2:15)

"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen." (Hebrews 11:27)

Paul fled to Sinai

"nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus." (Galatians 1:17)

Both asked the Unknown God to identify Himself as "I AM".

"Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”" (Exodus 3:13–14)

“And I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.’" (Acts 22:8)

Returned to Egypt/Jerusalem only after king who had tried to kill him was dead.

"Now the Lord said to Moses in Midian, “Go back to Egypt, for all the men who were seeking your life are dead.”" (Exodus 4:19)

(39-40 AD) Aretas IV died in 39/40 AD: "Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18)

Both received instructions on the law at Mt. Sinai

"This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you." (Acts 7:38)

Learned the truth about Jesus the Nazarene, risen from the dead, Saviour. This is why Paul went to Sinai.

Fellow Hebrews rejected the message

"Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him, but repudiated him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt," (Acts 7:39)

"And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”" (Acts 18:4–6)

Fellow Jews returned to slavery.

Egyptian slavery:

At Red Sea: "Then they said to Moses, “Is it because there were no graves in Egypt that you have taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you dealt with us in this way, bringing us out of Egypt? “Is this not the word that we spoke to you in Egypt, saying, ‘Leave us alone that we may serve the Egyptians’? For it would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the wilderness.”" (Exodus 14:11–12)

Return of the Spies from Canaan:

"“Why is the Lord bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?” So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”" (Numbers 14:3–4)

Mosaic Slavery:

"Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children." (Galatians 4:25)

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NOW Joseph and Jesus

“Shadow of what was to come, but the substance belongs to Christ” Col 2:17

So The Bible authors used Joseph for further writings of the messiah

Miraculous birth Jacob was 90 years old, Rachel was barren, Mary was a virgin

Gen 30:22-24; 37:3

Mt 1:18; Lk 1:31-33

Spoke truth in exposing sinful behavior of others knowing he would be hated and ostracized.

Gen 37:2

Mt 15:12; 23:1f; Lk 20:19; Mt 14:4

Both were shepherds

Gen 37:2

John 10:11

Beloved sons of wealthy fathers

Gen 37:3

Mt 3:17

Hated by his brothers without a cause

Gen 37:4,8

Jn 7:5; 15:25; Mk 3:21

Hated for telling the truth and prophesying

Gen 37:5

John 8:40; 7:7; 3:32

Foretold of future exalted position as king

Gen 37:5-8

Mt 24:30-31; 26:64

Destined to become kings from birth

Gen 37:8

John 18:37

Both parents “treasured in their hearts” the news that their children would be a future king.

Gen 37:11

Lk 2:20, 2:19

Persecuted out of jealousy

Gen 37:11; Acts 7:9

Mt 27:18; Mk 15:10

Willingly went at father’s request and authority

Gen 37:13

Jn 8:42

Lived with father before sent on divine mission

Gen 37:14

Jn 17:5

Ridiculed for being a king

Gen 37:19

Lk 22:63-65

Plotted against by his own brethren

Gen 37:20

Mt 26:4,15; John 11:53

Said to Joseph: “Then let us see what will become of his dreams”. Said of Jesus: “HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God”

Gen 37:20

Mt 27:43

Suffered bitterly at hands of brethren

Psalm 105:17-18

Heb 12:2

Stripped of his robe

Gen 37:23

Jn 19:23-24

Judah offered to sell Joseph for 20 pieces of silver. Judah in Greek is Judas who sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

Gen 37:26-28

Mt 1:2-3

Sold for slave price in pieces of silver (20p in 1900 BC, 30p in 33 AD, inflation) Through archeology, we know the price of one slave increased through inflation.

Gen 37:28

Zech 11:13

Mt 26:14-16

Leaders attempted to rescue him from hands of brethren: Reuben was eldest; Pilate

Gen 37:21

Mt 27:24; John 19:12

Two lesser punishments suggested than death: pit/sold + prisoner swap/scourge

Gen 37:22,27

John 18:39; 19:1; Mt 12:40

Joseph pleaded for his life but Jesus was silent

Gen 42:21

Is 53:7; Acts 8:32; Mt 26:39-42; Lk 22:41-44

Two leaders acted as judges: Reuben/Judah + Pilate/Herod Antipas

Gen 37:21,26

Luke 23:1,8

Leaders finally gave in to peer pressure and went along with plot

Gen 37:31

Mark 15:15

Goat blood was sprinkled on Joseph’s coat. Jesus, our scapegoat/Passover goat/lamb, had his own blood sprinkled on his own coat. Passover animal could be goat: Ex 12:5. Scapegoat: Leviticus 16:8

Gen 37:31

Scourging caused bleeding. 1 Cor 5:7;

False story of his death told and deceived many for a long time, animal/blood on coat. Disciples stole body

Gen 37:31-33

Mt 28:13-15

Taken to Egypt as youth after escaping death (Herod the great)

Gen 37:28

Matthew 2:14

Became a servant

Gen. 39:1-2

Mt 20:28; Phil 2:7

Tempted without sin

Gen 39:6-20

Mt 4:1-11

Falsely Accused

Gen 39:14

Mt 26:59-62

Unlike many other Bible characters, no sin of Joseph is recorded. Jesus was truly sinless.

silent

Isa 53:9; 1 Pet 2:22; 2 Cor 5:21

Suffered for another’s sin (false accusation)

Gen 39:20

1 Pe 1:21-24

Confined in jail/custody, thrown into a pit literally a well, pit; Gen 37:24

Gen 40:15

Mt 27:2; John 18:12

Inspired by the Holy Spirit

Gen 40:8; 41:38

Lk 4:18

Sentenced with 2 criminals, one saved, one lost

Gen 40:1-3

Lk 23:32-33

Cup bearer release from prison after 3 days: jail/grave

Gen 40:13

1 Cor 15:3-4

The baker was lifted up on a tree: crucifixion

3 days +Tree/ Tree + 3 days

Gen 40:19

Gal 3:13; Acts 5:30 lit. wood

“Green years” followed by “Dry years”

Gen 41:29–30

Luke 23:31

Put “over the house” Joseph, Moses, Solomon, Christ

Gen 41:40

Acts 7:47; Heb 3:2-6

Both exalted after suffering

Gen 41:41

Luke 24:26; Phil 2:9-11

All will pay homage and every knee will bow

Gen 41:40-43

Phil 2:10; Heb 1:6

Both given all power and authority, save one: Pharaoh/God

Gen 41:42-44

Mt 28:18

Both wore royal robes and dressed as a king, Jacob wore pharaoh’s royal robe with necklace. Jesus wore purple robe while being mocked with crown of thorns.

Gen 41:42

Mark 15:17–18

Joseph given seal ring for 7 abundance years before 7 years of famine and death. Jesus broke 7 seals that caused famine and death.

Gen 41:42

Rev 6:1

Both had priestly connections: Joseph married Asenath whose father was a priest of On. Christ = Melchizedek

Gen 41:45,50

Heb 5:10

Began “ministry” at 30 years old

Gen 41:46

Lk 3:23

Brothers stared at each other and went to get food

Gen 42:1–3

John 21:2–3

All must go to him for bread

Gen 41:55-57; 42:6

Jn 6:35

Unrecognized by his own

Gen 42:8

Jn 1:11; 31-33; Luke 24:16; 20:14; 21:4

Tested his brethren for worthiness

Gen 42:15

1 Peter 1:7

10 brothers condemned to prison and released after 3 days. Jesus condemned and rose from dead after three days.

Gen 42:17–18

Acts 10:40-41

Betrayers felt remorse. Joseph’s 10 brothers/Judas

Gen 42:21

Mt 27:3

Accusers, betrayers held responsible for shed blood

Gen 42:22

Mt 27:25

Both wept for the wicked

Gen 45:2

Luke 19:41

Identified the primary betrayer: Simeon/Judas Gen 49:5-7 Ancient Jewish Targum identified Simeon as primary ringleader to kill Joseph. “And Simeon and Levi, who were brothers in counsel, said each man to his brother, Behold, this master of dreams cometh. And now come let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits and say that an evil beast bath devoured him; arid we shall see what will be the interpretation of his dreams.” (Jewish Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan Ben Uzziel On the Pentateuch, J. W. Etheridge, Gen 37:19, 1892 AD). Jesus gave bread to Judas to identify him as the betrayer.

Gen 42:24

John 13:25-26

Righteous judgement: Joseph spared innocent (Reuben-oldest) for the guilty Simeon (next oldest) who spent several years in jail until the brothers returned. Jesus is our perfect judge who can separate the sheep from the goats. Simeon got the worst land in the Negev and was absorbed into Judah and Levi got no land at all.

Gen 42:24

Mt 25:31–32; John 5:22-23, 27

Amazing grace given to wicked: Joseph returned his brother’s food money, Jesus’ Grace to us.

Gen 42:27-28

Romans 5:6–11

Breaking bread and foot washing together

Gen 43:24-25, 34

John 13:5

Astonishment at Joseph/Jesus

Gen 43:33

Mark 11:18

Innocent suffers outside city: Benjamin was arrested outside the city/Jesus crucified outside Jerusalem.

Gen 44:4

Hebrews 13:12

Substitutionary atonement: innocent Benjamin for wicked brothers. Jesus for sinners.

Gen 44:16-17

Isa 53:5-6; 1 Cor 5:21

Innocent torn in pieces: Joseph-animal/Christ-scourging

Gen 44:28

Mark 15:15

Both forgave those who wronged them

Gen 45:4, 14-15

Luke 23:34

Became saviour of the people

Gen 45:5; 47:25

Mt 1:21; 1 Jn 4:14

Joseph/Christ suffered according to predetermined plan of God

Gen 45:5–7

Acts 2:23; 3:18; Eph 3:11

Self-anger and sorrow at hurting Joseph/Jesus

Gen 45:5

Acts 2:36–38

First news that Joseph/Jesus were alive was not believed. Jacob would not believe Joseph was alive. The male disciples would not believe Mary when she reported Jesus alive.

Gen 45:26

Lk 24:10–11; Mk 16:9-12

Fearful hearts brought to peace: Joseph/Jesus

Gen 50:2; 43:23

John 20:19

Substitutionary atonement: Innocent Joseph/Christ suffered for guilty brethren.

Gen 50:17-18

Isa 53

Evil turned into blessing

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Isaiah 13

16
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
18
Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.

Numbers 31

7
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man.
9
The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.
10
They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.
11
They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,
12
and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
17
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
18
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Jeremiah 19
8
I will devastate this city and make it an object of scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds.
9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.'

Leviticus 20:

9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Hosea 9

12
Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of every one. Woe to them when I turn away from them!
13
I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre, planted in a pleasant place. But Ephraim will bring out their children to the slayer."
16
Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."

So this is a loving God???

[–]lopied10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Amazingly, the question of an actual historical Jesus rarely confronts the religious believer. The power of faith has so forcefully driven the minds of most believers, and even apologetic scholars, that the question of reliable evidence gets obscured by tradition, religious subterfuge, and outrageous claims. The following gives a brief outlook about the claims of a historical Jesus and why the evidence the Christians present us cannot serve as justification for reliable evidence for a historical Jesus.

ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.

Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge.

Courts of law do not generally allow hearsay as testimony, and nor does honest modern scholarship. Hearsay does not provide good evidence, and therefore, we should dismiss it.

If you do not understand this, imagine yourself confronted with a charge for a crime which you know you did not commit. You feel confident that no one can prove guilt because you know that there exists no evidence whatsoever for the charge against you. Now imagine that you stand present in a court of law that allows hearsay as evidence. When the prosecution presents its case, everyone who takes the stand against you claims that you committed the crime, not as a witness themselves, but solely because they claim other people said so. None of these other people, mind you, ever show up in court, nor can anyone find them.

Hearsay does not work as evidence because we have no way of knowing whether the person lied, or simply based his or her information on wrongful belief or bias. We know from history about witchcraft trials and kangaroo courts that hearsay provides neither reliable nor fair statements of evidence. We know that mythology can arise out of no good information whatsoever. We live in a world where many people believe in demons, UFOs, ghosts, or monsters, and an innumerable number of fantasies believed as fact taken from nothing but belief and hearsay. It derives from these reasons why hearsay cannot serves as good evidence, and the same reasoning must go against the claims of a historical Jesus or any other historical person.

Authors of ancient history today, of course, can only write from indirect observation in a time far removed from their aim. But a valid historian's own writing gets cited with sources that trace to the subject themselves, or to eyewitnesses and artifacts. For example, a historian today who writes about the life of George Washington, of course, can not serve as an eyewitness, but he can provide citations to documents which give personal or eyewitness accounts. None of the historians about Jesus give reliable sources to eyewitnesses, therefore all we have remains as hearsay.

THE BIBLE GOSPELS

The most "authoritative" accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible. Note that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels existed by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, "like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man's estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures-- the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost." [Romer]

Elaine Pagels writes: "Although the gospels of the New Testament-- like those discovered at Nag Hammadi-- are attributed to Jesus' followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them." [Pagels, 1995]

Not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels existed during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies.

The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. [Pagels, 1995; Helms]. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention him! Elaine Pagels writes that "the first Christian gospel was probably written during the last year of the war, or the year it ended. Where it was written and by whom we do not know; the work is anonymous, although tradition attributes it to Mark..." [Pagels, 1995]

The traditional Church has portrayed the authors as the apostles Mark, Luke, Matthew, & John, but scholars know from critical textural research that there simply occurs no evidence that the gospel authors could have served as the apostles described in the Gospel stories. Yet even today, we hear priests and ministers describing these authors as the actual disciples of Christ. Many Bibles still continue to label the stories as "The Gospel according to St. Matthew," "St. Mark," "St. Luke," St. John." No apostle would have announced his own sainthood before the Church's establishment of sainthood. But one need not refer to scholars to determine the lack of evidence for authorship. As an experiment, imagine the Gospels without their titles. See if you can find out from the texts who wrote them; try to find their names.

Even if the texts supported the notion that the apostles wrote them, consider the low life expectancy of humans in the first century. According to the religious scholar, J.D. Crossan, "the life expectancy of Jewish males in the Jewish state was then twenty-nine years." [Crossan] Some people think this age appears deceptive because of the high infant mortally rates at birth. However, at birth the inhabitants of the Roman Empire had an even lower life expectancy of around twenty-five years. [source] According to Ulpian, a Roman jurist of the early third century C.E., the average life expectancy at birth came even lower to around twenty-one. [Potter] Of course these ages represent averages and some people lived after the age of 30, but how many? According to the historian Richard Carrier: "We have reason to believe that only 4% of the population at any given time was over 50 years old; over age 70, less than 2%. And that is under normal circumstances. But the Gospels were written after two very devastating abnormal events: the Jewish War and the Neronian Persecution, both of which would have, combined, greatly reduced the life expectancy of exactly those people who were eye-witnesses to the teachings of Jesus. And it just so happens that these sorts of people are curiously missing from the historical record precisely when the Gospels began to be circulated." [Carrier] Even if they lived to those unlikely ages, consider the mental and physical toll (especially during the 1st century) which would have likely reduced their memory and capability to write. Moreover, those small percentages of people who lived past 50 years were usually wealthy people (aristocrats, politicians, land and slave owners, etc.). However, the Gospels suggest that the followers of Jesus lived poorly, and this would further reduce the chances for a long life span. Although the New Testament does not provide the ages of the disciples, most Christians think their ages came to around 20-30 years old. Jesus' birth would have to have occurred before Herod's death at 4 B.C.E. So if Jesus' birth occurred in the year 4 B.C.E., that would put the age of the disciples, at the time of the writing of the first gospel, at around age 60-70 and the last gospel at around age 90-100! Based on just life expectancies alone, that would make the probability unlikely they lived during the writing of the first gospel, and extremely unlikely any of them lived during the writing of the last gospel (and I have used only the most conservative numbers).

The gospel of Mark describes the first written Bible gospel. And although Mark appears deceptively after the Matthew gospel, the gospel of Mark got written at least a generation before Matthew. From its own words, one can deduce that the author of Mark had neither heard Jesus nor served as his personal follower. Whoever wrote the gospel simply accepted the story of Jesus without question and wrote a crude an ungrammatical account of the popular story at the time. Historians tell us of the three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke), Mark served as the common element between Matthew and Luke and provided the main source for both of them. Of Mark's 666* verses, some 600 appear in Matthew, some 300 in Luke. According to Randel Helms, the author of Mark, stands at least a third remove from Jesus and more likely at the fourth remove. [Helms]

[–]lopied10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CertainCrow11 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

The Bible reigning in some of the abuse of slaves and suggesting those that have already sold themselves do so with respect for their masters doesn't mean it supports slavery as a whole.... It advised against selling yourself into such a situation and provided a means every 7 years j think it was to be freed from it. The context is taking an existing system that was considered very normal in that time and trying to out in some boundaries without abolishing a system that in some ways at the time may have been the only way for someone to survive. Consider the abolition of slavery was spear headed by Christians themselves and I think you missed the boat here...

Are you really splitting hairs over the fact one gospel said Judas hung himself and another said he fell and his innards spilled open? Does it really even matter? Not really the point. One account may have seen him when he was hanging and another may have seen him when his corpse had fallen from the tree

As for God's wrath against Babylon.. sure God loves his creation but he's also holy. Old testament often shows consequences of sin and if you were a believer you would realize every one of us could be considered worthy of death or not for mercy. But I understand thatd a lot of swallow and don't expect to change someones mind who is that set in their ways

[–]lopied10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]CertainCrow1-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You need to understand context a little more. In that time a foreigner had no land rights... It's literally the only way they could survive. It's not like all foreigners were trash or something.

The wars and killing is admittedly something every Christians struggled with. It's hard to understand those times when every nation basically fought and would consider victory or defeat based on who's God was more legitimate. It was also very much an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. This is how the old law was. Jesus and the new law changed that. The old law showed how futile it was to live up to the letter of the law and any non Jew was doomed. Old law revealed human flaw and need for God. New law showed there was hope and the need for a saviour and it was extended to non Jews. Even those who died under the old law were then spoken to from the grave and given a chance

[–]lopied10 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Isaiah 13

16
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
18
Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.

Numbers 31

7
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man.
9
The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.
10
They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.
11
They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,
12
and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
17
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
18
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Jeremiah 19
8
I will devastate this city and make it an object of scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds.
9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.'

Leviticus 20:

9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Hosea 9

12
Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of every one. Woe to them when I turn away from them!
13
I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre, planted in a pleasant place. But Ephraim will bring out their children to the slayer."
16
Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring."

So this is a loving God???

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Title	The selfless gender.
Author	slutslyainstud
Upvotes	434
Comments	77
Date	March 24, 2020 9:02 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/fod4nk/the_selfless_gender/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/the-selfless-gender.364845 https://theredarchive.com/post/364845

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