I think one of the hardest things to address when talking about marriage is understanding reasonable risk.

Taking a risk can be permanent, temporary, or so inconsequential that it is neutral.

Sometimes we can accurately assess risk, sometimes we need more research to make an informed decision.

It is difficult to articulate risk when the topic is wrapped up in love, trust, commitment; all these pathos arguments bulldoze over hard numbers.

"If he won't marry me then it is because he doesn't love/trust me"

I think this is the hardest argument to address from mgtow because it is using emotional language to argue.

And y'know, if we are talking about love and feelings and trust I can understand why someone would use emotional language as a rebuttal to mgtow-like ideas.

So I wanted to give an absurd counter-example:

John and Jill are talking one night and Jill mentions that her sister was married after dating her bf for 3 years.

John sees where this conversation is going and tells her that he has been pretty clear that he doesn't want to be married.

Jill, upset says "Do you not love me? Do you not trust me?"

John has told Jill over and over again about his stance on marriage and how awful he sees men being fucked over.

Instead of rehashing the same argument, John says to wait and he goes to the closet.

John returns with an eight chamber revolver and carefully places the gun in the middle of the table.

Jill is freaked out and asks "wtf?"

John, "You want me to prove I love you and I can only do that through marriage?"

Jill, "Yes?..."

John takes a deep breath and calmly says, "I want to point this gun at your head"

Jill is nervous and says "no"

John rebuttals "don't you love me? Don't you trust me?"

Jill is annoyed and says, "pointing a gun at someone's head isn't about trust!"

John snaps back, "This is important to me! I need to know you trust me"

Jill realizing the game asks, "is it loaded?"

John grins and says "maybe, but you should know that I love you and I would never pull that trigger, maybe it's fully load, maybe it's empty"

Jill: "I wouldn't let you point a gun at my head"

John: "Why?"

Jill: "because even if there was a tiny chance that your finger slips I wouldn't take that chance. It's stupid. First rule of gun safety is to treat every gun like it's loaded"

John: "but surely some level of risk is involved in trust right?"

Jill: "Yes I suppose"

John: "Well marriage is like having your partner hold a loaded gun at your head, it's an unnecessary risk that you want to make you feel more secure"

Jill: "That's a false equivalence. Death is way worse than divorce"

John: "I admit it's not a perfect example but the actual risks may be congruent"

Jill: "How..?"

John: "The odds of me pointing a gun and shooting you accidentally or otherwise is so unlikely it's practically zero however the risk is that you could die"

Jill frustrated: "Ok?"

John: "Now think about marriage--" Jill interrupting: "people don't usually die from marriage!"

John: "Right, but the odds of divorce are so high at 50% and the damage it causes are severe that comparing risk between the two means that my gun-trust is more reasonable way to show my love"

Jill: "This is stupid, I'm not going to fuck you over in a divorce"

John: "Ok I promise I won't shoot you"

Jill grabs her keys and starts walking to the door, "You're an asshole, if you think I would let you put a gun in my face just to prove my trust and love for you"

John slowly and loudly declares

"I would never put you in a position that could be used to hurt you"