Toxic Masculinity vs. Toxic Femininity

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Feminists are so out of touch with reality

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Not disagreeing with you there, I'm just saying that "red pill" doesn't mean "hating women". It means opening one's eyes to a truth that's been hidden. Literally everyone who comes to this sub is red-pilled for that exact reason.

And it's not just used in relation to women. Many former liberals these days use the term "red pill" in regards to their change in political beliefs and their realization of the harm being done by the SJW movement. As an example, Candace Owens, the black female youtuber who used to be an SJW and was, at least for a while, going by the name "red pill black". Her red pill wasn't about women, it was about going against the narrative that black people should be democrats.

I believe Dave Rubin, a gay Jewish youtuber, has also used the term to define his political "awakening".

(And I didn't mention the twoxchromosome lot because I know nothing about them, and I try not to hold forth on things I know nothing about)

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edit: not gonna ninja edit these posts, they’re just poorly worded and exist cuz I was tired as fuck. Read my last contribution if you want a better idea of what I was getting at. Sorry for being a dumbass

I think that the problem is that proportionally, there are far more toxic masculine people than females of the tumblr kind. Yes, there are toxic SJW bitches, but like you’ll see mofo’s everywhere who are total douchebags based on masculinity. The point is that the issue of asshole guys is far worst than the issue that some women are actually toxic femmazis, and it makes sense to define it the way it’s used.

I’m also a guy btw so chill before calling me a bitch SJW

edit: the idea is that toxic masculinity is so pervasive in our society that we should not be defining toxic feminity as anything similar, especially when it’s almost always used as an insult... and that it’s literally a reaction to toxic masculinity.

[–]That_Doctor 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

[+]Br0z1lla -26 points-25 points-24 points 8 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

edit: not gonna ninja edit these posts, they’re just poorly worded and exist cuz I was tired as fuck. Read my last contribution if you want a better idea of what I was getting at. Sorry for being a dumbass

A) you’re wrong. Women have it way worst. Look up Stastica about sexual assault. Look up how women are treated in different countries. Look up psychological studies on male opinions and how they think about females. Look up women in the work place.

We’re guys We’re chillin in a system made by men for men.

B) toxic feminity doesn’t exist. It just doesn’t. Its like saying ‘racism towards white people’ exists. Yeah there are are outliers who represent a demographic of assholes (Such as SJW’s), but the pervasive nature of toxic masculinity spanning thousands of years of culture makes it far more legitimate and a reason that it’s actually an issue unlike toxic feminity

C) oh and the fact that I got downvotes to oblivion for stating a very gentle, not inflammatory opinion is proof that toxic masculinity exists and is worst than feminity.

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[–]That_Doctor 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

A) you’re wrong. Women have it way worst.

Trying to win the battle of who has it worst is kinda pathetic imo, its better to realize what the problems are and work on them.

Look up how women are treated in different countries.

Fair, but I cant really do anything about that. I can probably spend 100s of dollars to go to these countries and protest and probably be killed in the process, but I dont have that kind of will or money.

Other countries is something to be tackled by your/our governement, so use your vote and not tumblr for this.

Look up psychological studies on male opinions and how they think about females.

I actually don't care what people think, the only thing that matters is if people actually act on their thoughts. What you said there is nothing but insulting to all the people suffering from mental illness who have urges to do bad things. You are basically saying they are the "worst" because they have bad thoughts. That includes women who have mental illness who might dream of going on a school massacre, but doesn't do it because they know better. So fuck you for not allowing me or anyone else to think what they want. (I do not think that all people with mental illness dream or even think of these things btw).

Look up women in the work place.

I'd rather not, I respect them and have no need to feel insecure if I accidentally touch them at work. If I see someone harassing someone else, be it a man, woman, trans or whatever I go in to help the victim of the situation. Looking at studies of how they are treated only makes me feel horrible. Especially knowing women can just do whatever they want and essentially get away with it. While men look at a woman, gets fired and put on a list with rapists to boot.

We’re guys We’re chillin in a system made by men for men.

Yes it was made by mostly men, does that mean its horrible to live in for women? It was not too long ago. Today? Nah, not so much. The system today was made by humans, not men. Saying our system today is made by men is like saying high heeled boots was made for women, which is not true btw.

toxic feminity doesn’t exist. It just doesn’t. Its like saying ‘racism towards white people’ exists. Yeah there are are outliers who represent a demographic of assholes

Well, I guess im a rapist then, since nice men dont excist, of course there are outliers, but im just a man. Do you have any tips as a fellow man to find any victims?/s

but the pervasive nature of toxic masculinity spanning thousands of years of culture makes it far more legitimate and a reason that it’s actually an issue unlike toxic feminity

Spanning thousands of years. Well there you have it, we are defined by our history folks. I am a rapist since our cavemen bretheren were.

Im from Norway, we had vikings, guess who ruled the household? Women did, if the man wanted to eat he needed permission from the woman. Thousands of years, America didnt even excist then. Jesus was probably alive. Why is this even an argument. You need to find a better one, because refuting it only needs one sentence; It's 2018, not 200BC.

C) oh and the fact that I got downvotes to oblivion for stating a very gentle, not inflammatory opinion is proof that toxic masculinity exists and is worst than feminity.

The only thing this is a proof of is that people disagree with you, it doesn't prove anything else.

I'm sorry I wrote fuck you, but that actually made me mad.

EDIT: On the sexual assault statistic you want me to comment on, first we as men need to not be laughed of and harassed when coming out with our stories. Only when people actually understand that men can be sexually harassed without laughing and playing it of as impossible can we compare statistics. There are too many out there afraid to say anything because they are afraid, because in the end will just get humiliated and have no support centers to help them. Making them commit suicide instead. When that problem is solved come back to me and I'd be happy to compare statistics! (Which btw, are almost equal at the present moment if you cherrypick the right statistics, just like women do when they want to force through their agenda.)

[–]Br0z1lla 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Alright, I’ll respond to some of this, I’m sorry for making you mad. I don’t want to communicate that I have rethought some of my opinions.

The way that I worded my original post and response was definitely from an emotional place- still one backed in a fact. My opinion is that toxic masculinity is greatly misunderstood. Most of the time it’s just seen as the representation of a “frat bro.” And in that way, ABSOLUTELY toxic feminity exists.

The problem is that toxic masculinity is actually talking more about the idea that men have created systems, through whatever ways, that are largely homophobic, sexist, and often times racist. The way these systems come about is from some bad form of “masculinity,” which is why we call it toxic.

Women, while they can get away with things just for having a vagina have not created systems that are subconscious actors in our society the way men have. That is why toxic feminity doesn’t exist in the same plane that toxic masculinity exists and I disagreed with the notion that defining them differently is a “pussy pass.”

Again, sorry if I made you upset, I’ll try to readdress some of what you said. My main issue is it’s a lot of “not my problem”/“this is not worth it” kind of mentality, which is fine. But you’re also making moral judgements on the matter, so you kind of have To interract with the material to do it justice.

1) fine, don’t try to have a battle, but I think it’s important to admit when one party is being mistreated. I genuinely believe that toxic masculinity is far worse to women then the reverse is to men. I think that you have to on skme level agree with that.

2) I guess you’re right. It’s not our problem. But I’m not talking about whose problem it is, I’m just pointing out that men again and again are the ones who are fucking shit up on a much grander scale than women.

3) yes. Bad thoughts leads to the dehumanization of women, which then leads to the rampant sexual assault, rampant domestic abuse, etc. I’m not saying women don’t do that, but there is certainly a weighting towards men.

4) First things first: think whatever you want. I’m sorry you felt I was saying you can’t think it. What I was really getting I is what I talked about in the last paragraph. It’s not the thoughts, it’s when the thoughts lead to bad shit. For example, I think toxic masculinity lead me tod envelop a virgin complex when I first started having sex with women, which then led me to treat non virgins poorer. Shit like that. It’s okay to want to fuck a virgin. It’s not okay to think women are less because of it and treat them poorly. As for the rest of the workplace argument, I think we’re just gonna disagree on the work place thing. I think this sub paints the idea that women can get away with anything. That seems like a bit of a jump to me. But if that’s what you think, I’m not gonna fight you on it, it’s not worth it. I’m just gonna leave this here: you’re whole idea is “I know I could feel terrible, but I’m gonna ignore that.” That seems like you admit it’s a problem, but refuse to address it for whatever reasons.

5) I don’t think things are horrible for women. I just also think that it’s like saying “we have a black president, racism is over.” There is still so many problems facing women, and while they’re aloud to vote and drive- DAMN. That’s just a fucking basic human right! We can’t say that “women are not having it too bad these days, they’re fine.” That’s my opinion again, you can disagree.

6) I’m sorry for phrasing that the way I did. I talk way in the beginning of this response as to what I actually mean about there not being toxic feminity in the way toxic masculinity exists.

7) I think the argument isn’t that the last rules our present. The argument is that while the system is slowly going away, you have to admit it’s still around (to some variety, of course not in the same way). That system has been around forever, and that time span is why it’s such a serious thing. It’s why you can’t just wave it off because “it’s 2018 now, everything is fine cuz we don’t rape women legally.” Things have changed. They’re not perfect, and the system is still around.

final comment: I’m sorry this got bad. I blame myself for having 2 hours of sleep because of finals and shit and expressing myself poorly. I hope you see better what I mean, and I’m sorry if I said things poorly.

[–]That_Doctor 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

No worries, i like a civil discussion. And I agree with some of your points, that said, I dont think I'm going to comment on those points, as it's kind of useless in a discussion. I will however quote and reply to what I somewhat disagree with in this post.

Women, while they can get away with things just for having a vagina have not created systems that are subconscious actors in our society the way men have. That is why toxic feminity doesn’t exist in the same plane that toxic masculinity exists and I disagreed with the notion that defining them differently is a “pussy pass.”

If you mean laws, neither has men. But if you want to look at the cultural aspect of it, sure. Some, what you call systems, are in place. But the funny thing is, the systems that women complain about is mostly made by women. Look at the makeup business, fashion all those things that most women care about. There are models that would snap in half during a mild breeze, there is makeup made for women to make them look "better". To make them feel comfortable in their own skin. Some women have a problem with this, but not all.

The funny thing about this toxic masculinity as you call it, which i do agree excists. It's not so much masculinity, its more humans. Women pressure each other to look nice, wear makeup, be flirty, happy all the time, be available. Plus alot more. Same goes for men, we pressure each other to not cry, dont feel anything, be muscular, be tall, earn alot of money and so on. In todays society its more about what the genders force their own gender to do, not so much men/women creating a system the other cant thrive in. (I am talking about developed countries and the west here, we all know there are issues in other countries).

But you’re also making moral judgements on the matter, so you kind of have To interract with the material to do it justice.

Fair.

1) fine, don’t try to have a battle, but I think it’s important to admit when one party is being mistreated. I genuinely believe that toxic masculinity is far worse to women then the reverse is to men. I think that you have to on skme level agree with that.

It's important to admit when any party is mistreated. Not just one of them, this is the root of the movement that is slowly being destroyed by SJWs, called feminism. Which I deeply agree with (not the SJW lol). I don't think its worse for women though. I think it's just as bad for both. I think it's horrible women don't feel safe walking alone when going home. I also think it's horrible that men are scared to walk behind a woman or in front, or in the same street, in fear of being called a rapist. Both are fears and equally bad. If you dont think it's equally bad, that is fine. But I think that for every thing the women feel, the men has a "counterfeeling" to the issue, being just as bad or scary.

2) I guess you’re right. It’s not our problem. But I’m not talking about whose problem it is, I’m just pointing out that men again and again are the ones who are fucking shit up on a much grander scale than women.

Well, there is also the counter, not in as many places, but you referred to history in your last comment, so I'm going to bring it up here, even though it's kind of irrelevant.

Mosuo
Akan
Minangkabau
Bribri
Nagovisi
Garo

Thing is, a culture is something that has developed over thousands of years. A culture is not manifested in law or a system. The system was made from the culture, so was the law. The laws where made by men because that was the culture back then. And it came from a place where it was indeed necessary that the women handled the home/kids/food and the men worked their asses of. Thats how the human race survived back then. Then we started making actual societies with the current culture. Thats how we got this "system" and these laws. Many laws have changed from back then, and we have reached a point where there no longer is systemic oppression. The culture however is a process that takes generations to change. Changing it in a day or 30 years is so to speak impossible. Changing the laws is the best way to start, the rest comes along the way. So blaming men for the horrific crimes of oppressing women throughout history is not going to save anyone or change anyone. It's a statement/opinion and not a fact. Men behaved differently 200 years ago. So did women, I don't really see the point of arguing over toxic masculinity as this is not the actual problem.

3) yes. Bad thoughts leads to the dehumanization of women, which then leads to the rampant sexual assault, rampant domestic abuse, etc. I’m not saying women don’t do that, but there is certainly a weighting towards men.

Im going to look up the study you speak of now. But please provide a citation with a credible source so I can actually find the one you are referring to.

Saying its weighting towards men depends on the scale of the research and where its from. Is it from Sweden, Norway, USA, Mexico, Dubai. They will all have different answers to psychology. Just because I saw a pretty lady and thought, damn, id like to hit that. That does not mean I'd actually do it, even given the opportunity to do so.

“I know I could feel terrible, but I’m gonna ignore that.”

I know I would feel horrible because I'd feel like they have the upper hand. Id recommend reading this, it's over ten years old, but I find it hard to believe its gotten worse since then.

I admit there are problems, but I'm not admitting that there is issues for one gender. The debate is not black and white. The stuff that is bad for men i.e. the so called "pussy-pass" is directly bad for men, which again leads to being bad for women in the same way as "boys will be boys" is bad for men and women. You can't, in a debate like this, try to force one of the parties to have it worse than the other. If you do, you only move the "power" from one gender to the other. If that is your agenda fine, but I strive for equality, not what todays feminism is.

5) I don’t think things are horrible for women. I just also think that it’s like saying “we have a black president, racism is over.” There is still so many problems facing women, and while they’re aloud to vote and drive- DAMN. That’s just a fucking basic human right! We can’t say that “women are not having it too bad these days, they’re fine.” That’s my opinion again, you can disagree.

You are entitled to that opinion, but as I said, thinking one has it worse than the other only continues the powerplay. It's better to see the problems and work on them. There is no use saying dogs have it worse than cats because they are on a leash. The only thing this will do is make people use leashes on their cats at all times. Arguing who has it worse is only damaging, that is the problem. Ofc women have problems, not systematic, but cultural. But guess what, for every problem they have there is this other gender called men who have the opposite problem as a direct reaction to the womens problems. So solving only one side of the equation leaves the equation unbalanced and we will never move on as a society because we are only focusing on one side of the equation. Same goes the other way around. Ofc men have problem, but focusing only on mens problems will only amplify womens problems, you need to take a step back and look at both at the same time.

If you want to truly work towards equality, you need to focus on both sides, not call men/women out for their privileges. Best example is the walking late at night example.

A man walks in the same street as a woman, he has twice the probability to actually get hurt, but cant afford to think about it, he needs to make sure he doesnt put psychological stress on the woman by getting too close. Just in case she feels sexually assaulted by our eyes. This leads to both having psychological stress.

The woman most likely doesn't even care that hes there, but some do, and its horrible. The man might not feel that way, but some do, and its horrible. Solve the womans issue, and men are stuck there with the same feeling, again looking more creepy than before because of the stress. Now the woman feels the same way again. And its a loop, solve the mans issue, and he will have no problem walking up to a woman and she runs. Next time he sees a woman, he will feel the same way again. Solve both of them and you are good. Arguing who has it worse leads nowhere.

I am not saying there are no problems, but each problem has an effect on the other gender. And unless you actually take a step back to solve the problem on both sides you will get nowhere. And thats a long process that are being worked on every day by men and women.

“it’s 2018 now, everything is fine cuz we don’t rape women legally.” Things have changed. They’re not perfect..

Things have changed, and they are changing all the time. People will always rape, always commit crimes. Trying to prevent it is ok, saying its because men are savage beasts are not. They are the outliers, women rape as well, they just don't get jailed for it. The men that think it's ok to rape should probably have gotten help sooner, but they cant, because they're men. To solve the rape issue, you have to look at both sides again. People don't rape because they want to, they do it either because they think they want to, or feel like they need to. This would be less of a problem if society(mostly men and not women doing this) try to undermine the mans feelings and locking them inside them. We are not allowed to talk about feelings if you want to follow the norms. But everyone does, I'm pretty sure the ones doing the raping don't, or they have other situations that made them do the horrible act in the first place.

TL;DR: Im not here to say women have it perfectly fine, I'm just trying to tell you that the mindset men are the worst of the two genders is not helping females, its actually hurting them.

[–]CommonMisspellingBot 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]That_Doctor 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Br0z1lla 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

First: thanks for being civil.

So I did more thinking, and I think I agree with you with most of what you’re saying. Both genders have problems. It’s harmful to ignore problems: ever.

That being said, where we fundamentally disagree is in the idea that sometimes its worth separating peoples problems appropriately. In the case of this men v women debate, there’s one thing you haven’t taken into concer: men were(/are in certain countries) the oppressors of women. I’m sure there are some cultural circumstances In which women opressed men, but ultimately, men have been the overwhelming majority commuting impressions. If you disagree that men ever opressed women, I’m gonna define impressions as the restriction of freedom/rights in a discriminatory manner. Ex: women weren’t allowed to vote. That’s oppressiom based in discrimination (of gender).

I think that the fact that one party was opressing the other must create some sort of change in the discussion. I don’t care if women no longer are opressed, because there are literally women still alive who were around when women weren’t allowed vote (please don’t nitpick that point, I know that US suffrage was granted in 1920 and that very few people are still alive from that, but the fact is that 1920 was pretty recent).

So my issue is that guys are saying things like “what a problem that google defines toxic masculinity as X and toxic feminity as Y.” I think that toxic masculinity is part of what has created female oppression over the years. Toxic feminity- as far as I know, correct me if I’m wrong- hasn’t created male oppression.

that is why toxic feminity is defined differently from toxic masculinity. I think it functions and has functioned entirely differently from toxic masculinity.

I have rethought the issue was well. I do think that it’s unfortunate that the top definition isn’t a combination of both an objective and subjective definitions. However I do not think it’s a pussy pass.

I would go over some other points you were making, but I really just wanted to get across that concept. Like- the example you gave of the man and women in the street. I don’t have any evidence to back this up, but that example just feels very simplistic and generalizing to both genders experiences. I’m sure that happens sometimes but I doubt that represents every instance. Idk tho. That’s an opinion.

final comment: you are right, and I rescind the idea that we should prioritize women problems, and I do think it’s garmful to women to over focus on their problems. But we should also be socially aware of comparing “toxic masculinity” which has created oppression of women and “toxic feminity” which is much more singular

(Small parenthesis; on the topic of female beauty standards: the counter argument would be “who do you think creates those beauty standards? Men. Men who first ran beauty pageants, men who first owned movie companies that instilled the idea of a beauty standard, and men who owned modeling agencies that created this standard. Of course, it’s gotten better, but I think those standards and perpetuation aren’t women’s fault. Sure, they play into it, but it’s not hard to draw the blame to men. I hate how fucking whack I sound saying that, but it does seem logical to some sense as an argument)

[–]ihadabadtherapist 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Br0z1lla 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Toxic Masculinity vs. Toxic Femininity
Author	fingerbreath
Upvotes	420
Comments	35
Date	May 15, 2018 12:59 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPass
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PussyPass/comments/8jld78/toxic_masculinity_vs_toxic_femininity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPass/toxic-masculinity-vs-toxic-femininity.901202 https://theredarchive.com/post/901202

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