Revisiting evolutionary psychology.

shamanbard · 2014-04-06T14:57:26+00:00

Sex at Dawn is pretty much a manual for polyamory (the authors are polyamorists). It's thesis: "heteronormative relationships=BAD!!!". Reading it, I got the feeling that the authors twisted the facts to support theory, rather than the other way around. (I mean, women are loud during sex because it draws other men in for gangbang time? Yeah right. I think they'd likely get a rock to the head by the guy who's trying to get some). Humans are more closely related to pan troglodytes, a warlike species known for violent mate-guarding, than they are to pan bonobo, the chill bisexual orgy chimps.

fopdespotic · 2014-04-05T02:56:47+00:00

However, what I do want to challenge here is that a lot of the guys think that its unnatural for a woman to enjoy casual sex. There was a study here that showed if you removed the chances of being shamed + the sexual skill of the man, most women will be up for it.

It's kind of like saying 'Yeah, I would do meth if it had none of the drawbacks'. It's cool that this is a hypothetical situation, but it has no basis in reality. There's always a cost.

As for naturally monogomous or not, the answer is...who knows? There's not enough evidence to point to one conclusion or another. Why would pair bonding and love exist if monogamy wasn't something we were made to do? Those are both observable physiological phenomenons. Why would jealousy exist if everyone was ok with fucking all the time? Why would we create an institution of marriage rather than organized orgies if people didn't care/want a monogamous commitment?

Here's a theory: Maybe the penis is shaped like it is because rape was a more widespread method of conception for men who couldn't secure women. Loser men would overpower the women and rape them when their choice mate was gone, and this was an effective method of securing their genes. The ability to remove their competitor's sperm was advantageous.

My answer could be right, your answer could be right, it really doesn't matter. Just do what makes you happy.

We_Are_Legion · 2014-04-05T05:51:37+00:00

There was a study here that showed if you removed the chances of being shamed + the sexual skill of the man, most women will be up for it. Women don't just naturally gravitate to the most alpha dude, because he has the best genes. Women and men are designed so women have sex with multiple guys, and the best sperm wins.

All of this ignores the interests of the main parties involved.

First, the alpha: A woman doesn't have the ability to provide value to keep multiple men hooked to her, she can only have one baby at a time. This lottery model to offer value to them all, as suggested, doesn't make sense for the the alpha. He contributes the most, is tougher and gets equal numbers of tickets? Why would the alpha settle for this?

The alpha has no reason to share the woman with the betas, he has no reason to be generous like this and let sperm win on "merit". A power struggle will definitely happen, and the alpha will certainly evolve to leverage his advantages, and beat out the competition from getting to the woman in the first place. He will be jealous and territorial. He can claim a woman as exclusive and the betas and the woman can't do anything about it. Since he typically leads the others and controls the resources, he demonstrably has the best genes anyway.

Second, the group: You could make a case that there's a mechanism to keep the alphas from breaking the order and taking stuff just because they can. How would this work? Boycott? Lets assume this and that it works. This society than encourages the alphas to be mediocre and not take risks or try. They'll have equal success anyway. In a scarce pre-modern environment this is disadvantageous for the group.

Any group that lets the alphas demonstrate superiority for a more exclusive mating will find much higher success and outperform the other with better children.

In any case, I think a power struggle would be real would definitely manifest in violence and tear the group apart, so its not conducive to cooperation either. Humans are violent and they will die over sex here. Moreover, the spread of STDs would be a nightmare compared to isolated mating.

Third, the woman: The woman, when claimed by the alpha, is provided for adequately in his care.

While its questionable even with multiple betas because then she is sharing attention with other girls. A woman is individually vulnerable and needs a protector with a vested interest in her. In this competitive poly-amorous system, she becomes completely expendable. Why would any man take risks to step up to protect her when there 40 more vaginas in the tribe? She is not exclusive to him. They won't make efforts to save everyone. And she can't fend for herself. She will die.

Why would she compete with 40 other girls in the tribe to provide sex? The lowest bidder is worthless. And they would be pretty much cattle anyway. Animals with different qualities but equally group property nonetheless. With a single man who needs something from them, they have power and say over him, and through him, the tribe. Why would they give this up?

Men constantly want the woman exclusively. Especially the more attractive women. Women, to protect themselves, would need to play men on each other. The moment that ends she would be raped non-stop. The woman would be likely to face injury.

This theory has a lot of holes. And more I'm sure I can broach if I think about it more.

bigyellowtwinki · 2014-04-05T06:27:35+00:00

Why do we want to become more like animals? It's great to acknowledge our mammalian urges, but what is man? Scientific research has done a lot in the past few decades to uncover children's psychological development; evolutionary psychology, which may explain sexual urges, does not tell the whole story on how to best build a human brain (see Stefan Molyneux's interview 'Development and epigenetics' on Youtube).

sir_wankalot_here · 2014-04-05T08:35:48+00:00

IDK, I personally think humans are more like Bonobos where there is an alpha male and alpha female, and the alpha female is bisexual. The alpha female seems to want the alpha male to have sex with other females and she is the one that keeps the other females in line.

For several years I was in an MFF thing. It was my wife who actually wanted another female. So I found one. Because of the nature of her work the other female lived at our house for one week out of four. They actually got along really well, the other female constantly got asked out on dates by other men. Sometimes she would go on dates with the other men, but because they where ~~nice guys~~ losers nothing ever happened. For the secondary female I pereonally did not mind that she went on dates because I felt if she could find an exclusive man I would be happy for her.

On one of her work trips my wife suspected that the other female had sex with another man. It did't bother me, but my wife got pissed as hell and she throw the other woman out of the house.

newpopehere1 · 2014-04-05T09:54:02+00:00

White knights think women are not sexual perverts like men and by sleeping with them you are doing something morally wrong. Most men are raised with this thought and never enjoy casual relationships. This is the biggest myth.

cthulhucumsicle · 2014-04-06T15:13:02+00:00

The main. Weakness here is think is that there seems to be an implication that women are not fucking for hyper gamy but for fun. Polyamorous traditional women are still seeking quality sperm. I think the figure is that 40% of males traditionally got to reproduce.

Seems to me that trp is pretty clear that women love to fuck alphas.

In fact the studies on sexual partner preferences among women while on and then off birth-control demonstrate this rather clearly.

boscoist · 2014-04-05T01:35:47+00:00

Solid argument, I haven't done enough research to fight that, though sex at dawn does seem to come up rather frequently around here so I'm sure someone will have a good counter.

I'm more of the opinion that the modern "issues" of alpha/beta are primarily cultural. Men are primarily raised by women in school's and there are no male role models around. Our (15-25 or so) generation has been told to sit down, be quiet, and be nice to everone so much that many of us have no idea how to be assertive. Also ADD/ADHD meds ruining things...

Regardless of the origin, we can all go out and observe 2 very distinct classes of men, alpha's who fuck tons of chicks and beta's who dont get much action. Of course there is a spectrum that you can move along.

[deleted] · 2014-07-03T14:39:13+00:00

Revisiting evolutionary psychology, using a book written by two people who don't understand evolutionary psychology.

Title	Revisiting evolutionary psychology.
Author	aresta
Upvotes	7
Comments	21
Date	April 5, 2014 1:07 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/228lvn/revisiting_evolutionary_psychology/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/revisiting-evolutionary-psychology.13586 https://theredarchive.com/post/13586

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