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Want an unconquerable mind? Try Stoic philosophy.

LastRevision
December 3, 2013
71 upvotes
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Post Information
Title Want an unconquerable mind? Try Stoic philosophy.
Author

LastRevision
Upvotes 71
Comments 20
Date December 3, 2013 1:41 PM UTC
(12 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1rzpl5/want_an_unconquerable_mind_try_stoic_philosophy/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/want-an-unconquerable-mind-try-stoic-philosophy.232244
https://theredarchive.com/post/232244
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Comments

[–]Clauderoughly15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

TIL I have been following Stoic Philosophy and didn't even know it.

[–]TRP Vanguardss_camaro3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Stoicism helps; also Transcendentalism.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Or Buddhism.

[–]jabberwockysuperfly1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Stockdale was an amazing guy. Twice he disfigured himself rather than allow the Vietnamese to use him in propaganda footage.

[–]shooler002 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Fun fact: His full name was James Bond Stockdale.

[–]SlickJamesBitch1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Putting letters from a stoic on my Christmas list.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Excellent article.

[–]Phaint 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

As much as I read and enjoy philosophy, I just can't get behind stoicism. Granted, my knowledge of the school is elementary because I have difficulty diverging myself within it. I understand the principles hold parallels with TRP, especially frame control. But too much of the philosophy screams "turn the other cheek" or even apathy to me, something I do not believe in.

Viewing this article's rendition of stoicism on the most basic level (which I already call into question):

1) Immediately recognize what is out of your control - Sure, I agree with this foundation of stoicism which appears to be the overarching principle.

2) Emotions are personal choices - Of course, frame control. Couldn't agree more.

3) Live a life centred on principles, not wealth, awards, family or power. - This appears to be alluding to "honour." Maybe I am naive or too young but the reason my principles exist are to achieve my goals. I respect honour but I respect wealth, awards and power and I am willing to back out on my principles to achieve them. Thats reality to me.

4) People who misbehave do not deserve an emotional reaction from you - Anyone that I feel deserves an emotional reaction from me will recieve one as punishment.

5) Meditate Daily To Revive Your Commitment To A Principle-Centered Life - I meditate to centre myself and keep my thoughts on point and in the moment, not to be a moral character.

My analysis is poor but stoicism just screams become apathatic and accept the misgivings that are pushed on to you by this world. Fuck that. I fight and manipulate to get what I want, increase my strength in areas that are shortcoming not accept them and move on. Please feel free rip a hole in my argument.

[–]Buchloe15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. I don't see anything that suggests apathy. what I see is outcome independence. Have goals, but don't let failures dictate your frame, or even see them as failures. Don't allow yourself to see yourself as a victim.

So what you're saying is, in life you prefer to have physical desires met and are willing to trade personal ethics for those things. I understand that, within reason. But you're trading one thing of value for another. It's about what you want more. For instance, the peace of mind of having consentual sex with someone who desires you, where you feel totally at ease, vs. raping someone against their will to "get" what you want. If you can keep your self respect and do that, go for it I guess. I personally want sex, but I also want to respect myself and those that I fuck. The trade off in that case isn't worth it. It would lower my value, both to society and to myself. But I will steal to eat. So I guess it's about where you draw the line

[–]FinnianWhitefir3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It sounds like you've taken the "Recognize what is unchangeable and accept it, recognize what you want different and have control over and change it" to a negative connotation. Yes, if there are bad things someone could change and they don't, that goes against it. You see things that you could change through extremely hard work and you go do them, while other people do not.

Stoicism doesn't have a "That is too hard to change so I won't do it" mentality.

[–]Redpillc0re2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Apathy? No. Stoicism is more about the domestication of emotion rather than apathy (Quoting Taleb's book here).

Of course a lot of TRP (dark triad, narcissism) and utilitarian ethics is petty and contrary to the stoics. I guess stoics weren't the biggest PUAs.

[–]KublerRossWasWrong1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This appears to be alluding to "honour."

The point of living a life based on principles is not to have honor. If you feel--or others judge--you are an honorable person because you have a firm commitment to well-defined principles, that is a side effect. This is, perhaps, a very subtle point.

Maybe I am naive or too young but the reason my principles exist are to achieve my goals. I respect honour but I respect wealth, awards and power and I am willing to back out on my principles to achieve them. Thats reality to me.

This is interesting to me.

  • You have principles.
  • Your principles exist to help you achieve your goals.
  • You will abandon your principles to achieve wealth, awards and power.

I see two possibilities:

  1. Wealth, awards and power are not your goals but are, in fact, more important to you than your goals considering you will sacrifice your principles to gain wealth, awards and power.

  2. Wealth, awards and power are synonymous with your goals, and your principles really are not tools necessary for achieving them, as you will set your principles aside if it is expedient.

Regardless of which is true, if you are "willing to back out on [your] principles to achieve [your goals]" then do you really have principles in the first place?

Trading the ineffable qualities that come from being a principled man for the fleeting, materialistic rewards of wealth, awards and power is not a good plan for the long-term.

[–]FortunateBum1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think a Stoic might say to you that you desire things which will ultimately only bring you more suffering. You should stop desiring those things.

[–]puaSenator2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

1) Immediately recognize what is out of your control - Sure, I agree with this foundation of stoicism which appears to be the overarching principle.

Definitely

2) Emotions are personal choices - Of course, frame control. Couldn't agree more.

More than just frame control, but emotional control. This fits in with part 4 quite a bit. You can't let things piss you off, you shouldn't get mad when frustrated, and so on...

3) Live a life centred on principles, not wealth, awards, family or power. - This appears to be alluding to "honour." Maybe I am naive or too young but the reason my principles exist are to achieve my goals. I respect honour but I respect wealth, awards and power and I am willing to back out on my principles to achieve them. Thats reality to me.

You could say honor, but there is more to it than that. For instance, if you follow this path, the rewards come as a fruition of your principle. For instance, I know several successful business people who charge more than the competition. The reason they do so well is because people trust them and rather use them. If they were known to just try and make a quick buck every now and then by easing up on their principles, people would be less likely to trust them.

Or even look at a company like Apple. If Jobs was willing to bend on his principles, the company would not be what it is today. He had a vision, and he fought for it. He didn't care what the investors wanted. He didn't care about the money, rather the idea. All successful entrepreneurs never expected to get where they got today. because they spent their life one day at a time building an idea, regardless of the end game.

Or me personally. I wont ever fuck another guys GF, ever. Now it may go against some TRP people here, but it's a personal choice. I don't want to be seen in the world as the type of person that would do that, especially considering I can get pussy just as easily any where else, without having to sacrifice my reputation to do so.

4) People who misbehave do not deserve an emotional reaction from you - Anyone that I feel deserves an emotional reaction from me will recieve one as punishment.

I take this more as an emotional control situation. You should be reacting logically, not emotionally. Don't let them drag you into an emotional fight. You need to be in control of your emotions so you can make logical decisions. It's okay to retaliate accordingly, but don't let them trigger your emotions and subsequently bring you down.

Fuck that. I fight and manipulate to get what I want, increase my strength in areas that are shortcoming not accept them and move on.

I don't think it teaches any of that. The world is tough, and you need to fight your way through it. But to be a leader, people need to WANT to follow you into battle. If people can't trust you, see you as manipulative, and willing to burn whomever at the first chance of a nice paycheck, less people are going to be willing to follow you into battle.

[–]golf4soup1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I've been attempting to practice stoicism a while before I started lurking around this sub, and IMO your take on the first point is off. Yes, stoicism encourages recognition of aspects out of your control, and allows for free release of such things. Detachment allowing for maintenance of frame and calm.

However, the other side of this statement is not as highlighted in stoic writings, but just as important to me. Recognize what you DO have control over.

Stoics are tasked with sorting everything they encounter into one of two categories, two absolutes: what you DO and DO NOT control. And when you play with such absolutes, you realize so much more falls into the first category than you would originally believe.

No, I cannot control my girlfriend's sudden burst of anger when I do XYZ wrong. But I DO control how I handle everything from solving the problem to enabling/reinforcing her proper behavior in the future. In my work meetings I have much more sway and control over how an entire 30 person debate can go than one would believe if not sorting by absolutes.

TL;DR: stoicism gives larger self-empowerment and ability to maintain frame than teaching apathy and withdrawal

[–]The_smartest_man_evr0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2UWiseSF6Y

[–]r0b3r71 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Its implying that being a leader is defined by your response to what happens around you rather than to cause a reaction. (Dont be an instigator). If you dont want to be a part of the instigators plot for a reaction, then dont reply to it.

[–]neilmccauley19800 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Philosophy of stoicism was the final piece that tied all things together for me.

Seneca - On the shortness of life was a great read.

[–]MahlerNinth0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is fantastic. Thank you for sharing. Lesson no. 4 is particularly valuable here.

[–]pro_skub-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I knew all that before being 15 without having to read it anywhere. Again I don't think it works well in practice as convincing and alluring as it sounds.

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