Losing argument and controlling frame?

FrgElder · 2020-04-25T12:41:34+00:00

It depends on what the context is and what your definition of "winning" is when it comes to arguments or conversations. It also depends on what set of moral standards you set for yourself.

For example, look at the political realm; where every single conversation, argument, and interview, is a battle that needs to be won in order to get a stronger foothold. Saying "I made a mistake" or "I don't know about that topic" is suicide in the political realm, it's all just posturing. Approaching arguments like this is good for winning popularity contests, but it acheives nothing in regards to getting things done or getting results. It also only works in small doses; as the more you employ these strategies on one person/audience, the more obvious and less effective they are.

There are people that need to win arguments at all costs, but personally when I am wrong I like to admit I am wrong and then move on quickly to find a solution. Likewise, when other people are wrong in conversations and they admit it, I don't berate them for it or focus on assigning blame. People respect when you can acknowledge your own short comings and then move quickly into actionable solutions. Everyone hates people who dwell on unimportant issues just to see who can "win" a conversation.

I use the same strategy with women for important conversations, but you have to be much more tactical with women. Women will maneuver through conversations playfuly/sarcastically almost like a sparring match for fun (like how men play wrestle to test their skills or banter with each other, as communication is the domain of women and physical combat/posturing is the domain of men). For women, the underlying subconscious communication is the message. It doesn't matter so much as what you are saying as much as how you are saying it. I'll list two examples:

One of the admin girls at work notices I made a mistake on invoicing my expenses, so they come to talk to me about it. After reviewing, I know that I made a mistake and I'm going to admit to it. I can either chuckle and smile about it, correct the mistake and make a joke, and then hand them back the paperwork and get back to my business with good confident posture, almost even being dismissive of them (but in a good natured and playful "I have shit to do" sort of way)... OR I can slouch/slump and stare at the ground, showing anxiety and worriness for making a mistake, maybe say something like "omg I'm so sorry, it won't happen again, I promise". Those are the two spectrums of reaction to portray the same message, but notice how they communicate and acheive two completely different things. With women, the message is not the message. The medium is the message.
For a more personal example, say my LTR is mad at me or pissed off about something else for some reason. When I get home she immediately gets mad at me for something that is my fault. Like I don't know... I didn't do some small task that I said I would. She redirects her emotions from something else onto me and gets mad. Immediately I recognize this as a shit test, she doesn't actually give a fuck about the thing, she's just testing me. I pass the shitest and immediately her mood will change. Now how you go about this is up to you, but if they're just being slightly annoying/nagging I do it in a playful and slightly condescending way (the benelovent benefactor attitude). But if they're being straight up bitchy I will correct their behavior and withold attention (a huge red flag is women just blow up on you for small shit, don't put up with that stuff in the first place btw). After passing the shitest her mood will change and she'll be happy. She started an argument that she didn't want to win, because it was just a test disguised as an argument. You can still admit fault, but you have to navigate that carefully. Usually in these situations I just immediately shift attention over whatever was the catalyst and get down to the real problem, or divert to something better to reset the frame. She'll go along with it easily because the problem she brought up was never important anyways, it was just an excuse to administer a shit-test. She wants you to ignore it and put her in a better mood by smashing her dumb bullshit tests. This would be a different situation than serious issues, which you should not try to divert attention from (looks weak and avoidant).

jealousmelon · 2020-04-25T10:29:33+00:00

I think self-awareness is crucial when it comes to frame. Even when you know your frame is not really good yet, you don't have to necessarily agree with anyone pointing that out, it's an admission of guilt of some sort. In other words, knowing that you're weak doesn't mean you have to talk about being weak. Just know that you are working on yourself and act like you are strong already, that's a better frame to have I think.

amwfhunter · 2020-04-25T13:26:09+00:00

If you do not like the topic change the conversation. Look at how Trump deflects questions. He is actually quite good at this.

Title	Losing argument and controlling frame?
Author	skriker25
Upvotes	1
Comments	4
Date	April 25, 2020 10:08 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askTRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/g7r6ng/losing_argument_and_controlling_frame/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/losing-argument-and-controlling-frame.654634 https://theredarchive.com/post/654634

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