Never initiate commitment

also beware there are many problematic women that see the world in a broken way. Some of them think that its a use or be used world so if you are with them make sure you are using and not being used.

Definitely important to be wary of these kinds of people. That's why it's important to have healthy boundaries. There's no way to completely avoid running into manipulative people.

The saving grace is having the wherewithal to cut something loose if it's really not healthy to be around. There's no way to 100% preemptively avoid users.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]recyclablebanthas 3 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]recyclablebanthas 3 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

1

.....a man initiating a relationship since that is an indicator of lower value. Why insist on behaving in a way that is unattractive to most women?

It's often not what one does, but how they do it.

Someone could do something as simple as say hello and screw up their chances because of how they deliver it.

Simply initiating the conversation about wanting a relationship can go either way. If someone has no spine about it or comes off low confidence, then that'll reflect poorly on them.

Initiating a conversation about wanting a relationship with confidence tends to reflect well of someone.

The thing is, if the other person is really only after casual, then a clear communication about wanting a relationship will screen them out/scare them off.

It's actually a time saver if that occurs though.

2

In your response you said some women like it and others don't but most women don't like the idea of a man initiating a relationship. But maybe there are ways to do it that don't come off as needy?

Women who want casual, will be turned off by clear communication about wanting a relationship.

Women who want a relationship, will be relieved the guy brought it up first. Just like they might like a guy to approach them if they're too shy to do it.

Anyone can be turned off by a low confidence approach to bringing this topic up because it can subcommunicate that one doesn't value themselves.

3

hmm true but for women the toxic ones tend to be the most sexually attractive and stimulating.

It's a matter of taste. I've partaken of those as well. They do have a certain appeal.

They also can get old. I know plenty of dudes who get tired of the toxic mess. The drama can get really old, really fast.

Stable women can be just as attractive and stimulating. Just different as all.

4

I also never claimed that you should hang out with toxic people all the time so I don't know where you got that from...

Ah, that was rhetorical, not intended as literal.

The point intended was that choosing to be around toxic people can drag one down. And that things are simpler without them.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I agree with this, there are ways to say things and there are ways to say things. But I have to ask, what kind of man seeks to settle down and have a long term relationship with one woman?
I don't know if that is true. At the point of wanting a relationship most couples have already done the deed and at that point the woman feels comfortable enough saying and expressing herself more comfortably, again most of the time. I would also say that majority of women like the idea of working to secure a man. Think of it like taming a wild beast or a criminal which are usually the extreme representations of the dark traits that women want in men, so like taming an animal.
Stable women offer less sexual stimulation. Part of the appeal of those toxic women is the emotional turmoil translates into sexual appetite..
Too much yes, but in the right amount it could actually help personal development and growth since you learn and practice how to handle people like this and develop a thicker skin.

[–]recyclablebanthas 3 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

1

But I have to ask, what kind of man seeks to settle down and have a long term relationship with one woman?

I find this to be an interesting question. Shouldn't someone be free to pursue what they want?

I've run into plenty of women who have no interest in settling down ever. I've never once thought, what kind of woman doesn't want to settle down and have a long-term relationship with one man? It is what it is.

People seek what they want and that's it. I've gone through phases in life where I've wanted casual and times when I wanted an LTR.

To each their own.

2

I don't know if that is true. At the point of wanting a relationship most couples have already done the deed and at that point the woman feels comfortable enough saying and expressing herself more comfortably, again most of the time.

It really depends on the person.

Some people are really insecure.
Some people have varying degrees of dysfunction or toxicity which impair their ability to communicate clearly.
And sex doesn't always lead to emotional attachment or investment.

3

I would also say that majority of women like the idea of working to secure a man. Think of it like taming a wild beast or a criminal which are usually the extreme representations of the dark traits that women want in men, so like taming an animal.

A lot of younger girls often go for the notion of having to work to make something work. A lot of younger dudes, too. Guys often go for the bad girls and girls often go for the bad guys. It's a cliche.

As people get closer to their 30s, I've seen both men and women tend to have less patience for this idea. And more likely to decide that the other person should not require taming, with the "dark traits" seen as immature.

4

Stable women offer less sexual stimulation.

It's a Venn diagram and not all of it overlaps.

Boring and insecure women offer less sexual stimulation.

Stability is a different subject.

5

Tastes can change over time.

I definitely used to see stable as automatically boring. I've come to see it as a matter of taste. Sometimes, things that use to matter, may not matter as much to you as they once did. Sometimes things that used to be requirements can become turn offs.

It's not for you or me to dictate to anyone else what they should see as a turn off or a turn on.

And it's definitely not an objective scale.

6

Part of the appeal of those toxic women is the emotional turmoil translates into sexual appetite..

It's a funny thing really.

I know what you speak of. There's a reason that it's a cliche that crazy girls are good in bed.

But if all that starts to get old, then the toxicity will make a dick wither. It won't translate into sexual anything.

Honestly though, the point is not to change your mind. Go for what you want.

But at the same time, realize that your views don't represent everyone's. They don't represent some end point that everyone is or should be headed to.

Your views represent where YOU should be. That's it.

7

Too much yes, but in the right amount it could actually help personal development and growth since you learn and practice how to handle people like this and develop a thicker skin.

To a point, I can see this argument. But again, drama gets old fast.

There can come a time when perhaps someone starts to think if you've been with a few toxic and abusive types, you've kind of been with them all.

And there may come a time when one decides that life is too short to waste spending time on purpose, with people who one has to be constantly on guard with.

8

I remember one time I was adding another notch to the headboard and she spent a fair amount of time afterwards trying to emotionally weaken me.

I have always made it a practice to build up a rotation, so I cut her out the next day without a second thought. But not before she spent the morning trying to do whatever she could to make me emotionally dependent on her.

Could I have dealt with her over a longer period of time? Sure.

But sticking around on a regular basis can make a mark. Just like someone who makes it through a war zone can survive and thrive, they still develop PTSD.

So too, can someone who constantly puts up with manipulation, end up developing behaviors and mindsets which are perfectly well-adapted to dealing with manipulative people, but which are very, very maladaptive for dealing with anyone who is not a piece of shit.

In fact a lot of behaviors and mindsets which are very practical when dealing with manipulative and abusive people, often have the side effect of screening out people who are healthy and well adjusted.

Just bear it in mind if you ever find yourself feeling like all of humanity is manipulative and shitty. Consider that they might not all be that way, it might be that you're accidentally screening out the good people.

And the funny thing is, you may not even see them as good people. You may see them as boring.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to categorizing people. Its always important to keep an open mind and know the pitfalls that yours\others behavior can lead you into. So if we answer the question what kind of man is going to initiate a relationship? lets add usually and likely as words to keep our options open. Usually its a man with no many options or the kind of man that is at the end of his sexual peak...The reason I ask this is to figure out why many women are disgusted by that behaviour and what sort of indicators it brings up to them? That way one can decide either to calibrate himself or not. This idea is based on the fact that there are certain traits that signify some things and some traits that signify other things...
There are exceptions to the rule but the rule is the rule for a reason. There are certain biological tendencies and hormones that are released that give people a certain sense of comfort and openness...
Interesting notion. But I dont believe this behavior is exclusive to younger girls, if you have ever been on a dating app and tried to talking to older women they seem to seek the same type of men if not even more extreme versions of them. And I wouldn't say that younger men want the same thing. This seems to be more of a female oriented desire. Claiming dark traits are immature seems like a cop out. Having abundance of dark traits while being able to socialize properly is an extremely powerful weapon. Having the ability to be vicious and ruthless is just as important as having empathy and kindness.
Whats a Ven Diagram?
I don't know if its taste or just acceptance. I think people tend to mask their inability to have something with whatever moral virtue they select. The young, hot, toxic women tend to be the ones that are pursued the most. I think it is possible that one would make a claim that their taste changed because they no longer can obtain or compete with the younger guys. So my question here is don't you think that people base their taste on what they are good at? or their lack of skill? so if someone is not good at lets say football they would claim "eh I dont like it" but do they actually not like it or they feel inclined to justify it that way so they don't feel bad about themselves?
That is why those kinds of relationships don't last too long and usually ends up in one side or even both sides getting hurt. Its very dramatic. I never tried to insinuate anyone should head to a certain direction. Not even talking about any direction that I am heading to lol
It does. Like everything. I think stable relationships get boring fast as well. that is why I am encouraging the idea of diversity. A little bit of this a little bit of that. I am not even talking about dating at this point...I think life is short and its exactly why you should never give up. If we are talking about people generally, then diversity is great. If one seeks a long time partner then stability is important. If one seeks an adventurous, turbulent, sexual experience then the crazy route is the way to go...Diversity could also manifest itself within a certain relationship with a woman. You could have a so called "stable" girlfriend but decide to spice it up every now and then.
Very true I agree. Its a dangerous game and that is why people eventually get out of it. I think most people are manipulate to a degree but not all of them are shitty. Some people want your best interest but I think its fair to make a claim that all people care for themselves first. Its also fair to think that good people are boring to an extent. Order, rules, respect which are associated with positive traits require certain consistency which some may find either boring but could also be very relaxing and addictive in its own way.
Im actually curious about what you said that certain behaviours screen out healthy well adjusted people. Can you elaborate on that?

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

1

So if we answer the question what kind of man is going to initiate a relationship?

James Marshall gave a great talk on how to establish multiple relationships. Basically good practices for spinning plates right.

During that talk he says:

" ....the point of this lifestyle is that it means that when you choose a girl to be with long-term it will be that it will be a choice out of the available spread of what was what you've been experimenting with..." [Source]

"You will end up in monogamous relationships they can be a beautiful thing but they should come out of choice. It should happen when you go whoa.... I've got no other choice but to let all my other girls go because that one there has just blown my head off...."

And so, guys who want to settle down come in two flavors:

A guy with scarcity mindset who thinks he doesn't have other options or doesn't know how to find them.
A guy with abundance mindset who knows his options and is settling down by choice because a girl is just blowing him away.

2

The reason I ask this is to figure out why many women are disgusted by that behaviour....

Whether or not someone wants a serious relationship is a pretty significant personal value.

It's one that can end a dating situation if things don't match up.

Assuming that a dude isn't jumping the gun when bringing the subject up, women who actually want an LTR aren't going to be "disgusted" if the dude shows that he shares such an important value. They'll be relieved.

3

There are exceptions to the rule but the rule is the rule for a reason. There are certain biological tendencies and hormones that are released....

Again, there's no way to predict how people react to sex.

Personality disorders, childhood trauma, etc., can all complicate matters immensely, leading to completely different hormones and physiological reactions.

What happens if there's childhood crap that results in a fight or flight response to intimacy, for example. That's not uncommon.

For that and other reasons, it's difficult to predict how a given person will respond to sex or growing intimacy in a dating context.

Which is why it's important to screen out unstable people if one is after an LTR.

4

.....if you have ever been on a dating app and tried to talking to older women they seem to seek the same type of men if not even more extreme versions of them.

Dating apps are only part of the picture. A lot of people use them as just part of how they meet people, with a lot of methods involving going to different social events and mixing in person with strangers.

Older women who deal mostly or only in apps, are different from older women with active social lives who have abundance.

It's difficult to generalize much about such large populations of people, but at least:

Those who want LTRs get more desperate if they are older AND have scarcity mindset.
Those who want casual and have scarcity mindset, might panic and try to settle down (which is often ill-advised).
Those who want LTRs and have abundance mindset, will date around until they find someone they find amazing, regardless of how old they are.
Those older people who don't want to settle down and have abundance mindset, will enjoy themselves because they know they have options and they know their worth.

5

And I wouldn't say that younger men want the same thing. This seems to be more of a female oriented desire.

It's individual to the person. Some people don't want to settle down. Some do.

The important thing is to know what you want, and to find others who want the same thing.

Trying to predict based on gender or age is going to leave one with blind spots. I've run into plenty of people in a variety of age demographics who want casual or LTRs. I just don't think generalizing serves much utility with this subject.

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

6

Having the ability to be vicious and ruthless is just as important as having empathy and kindness.

Weaponizing any of this is just one philosophy.

And a consequence of it is that one will attract others who subscribe to that philosophy, while repelling others who don't.

I've been on both sides of the road for this one. And honestly, I've liked it better after I started screening out people who feel the need to be ruthless towards people around them. Don't have any patience for it in my life really.

Like, if we're talking about standing up for oneself and getting a hold on life, that doesn't require ruthlessness.

7

Whats a Ven Diagram?

Venn Diagram is a diagram that tracks two things and how much of them overlap. Sometimes people put more than 2 variables on them, but they're often used for 2 things.

Like, "People who like movies" will be one circle, and "people who like books" might be another circle and then the circles will overlap to a degree because some people like both.

8

The young, hot, toxic women tend to be the ones that are pursued the most. I think it is possible that one would make a claim that their taste changed because they no longer can obtain or compete with the younger guys.

I think that people certainly start off pursuing things they think they should want. Or things that they think are desirable.

And then they get out and experience these things and find out what works for them and what doesn't.

Just like when you go to a restaurant and try new food for the first time. If you like it, you'll keep coming back for it. If you don't, you won't.

It's like that with the "hot, toxic women." They can be fun to a point, but also really lame. And sometimes, people just come to a point where they'd prefer "hot women" without the toxicity.

9

So my question here is don't you think that people base their taste on what they are good at?

I think a lot of things change after one games and gets more notches on their bedpost, so to speak.

What you like today, probably won't be the same thing you like in 5-10 years.

10

That is why those kinds of relationships don't last too long and usually ends up in one side or even both sides getting hurt. Its very dramatic....

Right, and some people do get sick of that. Some people end up wanting to skip all that drama and just get the good sex part.

It's possible if one knows what they're doing.

11

Im actually curious about what you said that certain behaviours screen out healthy well adjusted people. Can you elaborate on that?

So, there are behaviors that are adaptive and optimal when dealing with dysfunctional people like the stereotypical club girl who is a hot mess. Pretty standard observation. We learn to deal with all the negative shit. Deflecting it, blocking it, countering it, etc.

It becomes second nature. There are a million little things we don't even think about that leak into what we say and do. Teasing and drawing things out. Cat string theory and all that.

And really, we become the other side of the toxic coin, in order to get with toxic girls. That's the thing.

But girls who aren't toxic, will come at things directly. What will us guys do in that situation? We'll cat string. Which leads to them concluding that the guy is dodgy and they'll peace out.

Girls who don't play along usually come off boring because they don't feed energy into the whole exciting game of it all. So they often slide away unnoticed as we move on to someone else who plays along.

I've been on both sides of the road and they both have their upsides. But the "game" is different depending on what one wants. A lot of things can "work."

Title	Never initiate commitment
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	6
Comments	22
Date	August 11, 2022 2:44 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/wlt4z6/never_initiate_commitment/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/never-initiate-commitment.1252327 https://theredarchive.com/post/1252327

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