Gender differences in children's narrative fantasy

[deleted] · 2014-01-30T16:05:19+00:00

I don't think any of your book related arguments are convincing. It's adults who write children's books and while children's fantasies are undoubtedly affected by such books, it doesn't prove anything about what fantasies children actually have.

I found one study which possibly supports your argument

The present study, analyzing gender differences in children's writing of fantasy stories, found significant differences in conflict resolutions they created. Boys used more violent resolutions to solve problems, while girls used more reasoning and analysis.

Of course, there is also research that shows that adults treat male and female children differently for example by talking more to girls than boys. So we can't say to what extent these behaviors are "instinctive" or learned.

Studies on what children want to be when they grow up show that girls and boys have very similar desires today. The only one I was able to find on a quick googling was this one.

Top 5 for boys

Doctor (11%)
Footballer (10%)
Dancer (8%)
Teacher (6%)
Police officer (6%)

Top 5 for girls

Doctor (8%)
Teacher (8%)
Footballer (7%)
Dancer (5%)
Police officer (5%)

[deleted] · 2014-01-30T13:36:02+00:00

I thought Gaiman was less trying to get across the fact that women are inherently different and instead that was the cultural narrative that girls a socialized to receive. I mean this is the same book with a transgender person in it.

The thing is with your Potter example, there are plenty of male fantasies where a man is a "Chosen One" dedicated to vanquishing evil and secretly had awesome parents. From off the top of my head, Eragon, Star Wars, the Bible (can't get more awesome than the son of God!), Lord of the Rings (Aragorn) . That is in fact a very common trope and has nothing to do with male or female.

That being said fairy tales are poor representations of children's fantasies or even female fantasies as 1. they are a cultural artifact (they are in fact heavily influence by social mores) and 2. We don't know who wrote them. Could be men, could be women, could be a combination of both as stories shifted and mutated over time.

The problem is that really there are plenty of stories where men act and women do. This is really a subset of that. That is not a female specific trope. We see that across all spectrums. I argue it's a social thing, you'd probably argue it's biological.

Thank god however with the advent of more progressive stories and more take charge female character

Edit: Also stories with proactive females - Jason and the Minotaur, Hansel and Gretel (it is in fact Gretel who saves the silbings from the witch as Hansel is simply there as a victim), Mulan, the Japanese tale of the Crane wife, The Six Swans, etc etc.

IIHotelYorba · 2014-01-30T14:21:19+00:00

Women's fantasy is about their unseen innate goodness, men's fantasy is projection of their power.

You mean men's fantasy is about becoming good, while women's is about already being good. It's an interesting insight. Matches up with the idea that men are denied acknowledgment of their intrinsic worth (aka their humanity) and must find a way to become useful.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-01-30T04:18:25+00:00

I guess I want to eventually have a discussion on whether it's true that little girls' fantasy involves their innate goodness.

How this came about was a user declared media has lied to men about being a nice guy and it didn't get them anywhere. This is an often-repeated accusation, that somehow Red Pill people have been lied to. By whom it's never specifically said. I responded that media has never lied to men about what women want. It's very stereotypical, that's true, but men mistook messages intended for women, fantasies constructed for women, and acted on it. I also said the blame for the "lie" is a convenient excuse to blame an external influence and to be mediocre.

So I guess it's an observation of mine up for discussion?

Shenmue654 · 2014-01-30T16:37:01+00:00

Quote 1: " All confirmed they wanted to be better stronger faster more heroic in their childhood fantasy. n=0 for women, I haven't had a chance to ask anyone."

Woman here, reporting. ;) I was an interesting case. As a child, a princess wasn't what I wanted to be--- I fantasized about becoming the evil queen. XD About coming upon power and about being consumed by it. About the conflict between having responsibilities and desiring normal relationships with people (The more powerful you become, the more the two conflict).

As to why I consistently lost in my own fantasies, I think it's because winning was never the point--- I wanted respect and power, not necessarily success in the end. It sucks, being a powerless Sped kid.

Now when I passed puberty and became a teenager (And ever afterwards), that fantasy changed like a light switch. Instead of insisting upon doing the job myself, I suddenly found it more appealing to be the support system to someone else who was doing it. This was either because my hormones said so (XD) or because I was suddenly having to take care of my parents at that time. Or both.

roe_ · 2014-01-30T15:50:56+00:00

I'd say one salient difference is this (no across all, but most):

Girls' narrative fantasies are focused on their relation to high-status men - pointedly, being chosen by one. (Shrek may appear to buck this trend, but I'd argue Shrek is the product of a culture of "status-reversal"). I'm not sure it matters whether or not she was "really a princess all along" (as in Snow White, Sleeping Beauty) or she was made one (Cinderella, the Little Mermaid). Also: falling in love with low-status despite his low status, but he is transformed into high-status (Princess & the Frog, Sleeping Beauty again, Beauty and the Beast again)

Boys' narrative fantasies are focused on becoming high-status men - and acquiring a beautiful mate (every comic book character ever - except maybe Wolverine) - or sometimes, several beautiful mates (James Bond).

notveryunique · 2014-01-30T10:29:11+00:00

Interestingly, this boy vs girl fantasies distinction matches a free will vs no free will distinction. In the first case, you can become someone you weren't destined to become through exercising your free will. In the second one, life will go its predestined way so you want to have been great and special all along.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-01-30T15:40:19+00:00

The Harry Potter thing is standard issue monomyth fare. Also true of Star Wars where Luke Skywalker learns that his father was a famous Jedi.

This isn't a gender thing

Nonmedicated · 2014-01-30T22:28:07+00:00

I volunteer at a preschool once a week and I have for several years. All the youngest kids want to be faster, want to fly and be 'super' I'm the ____est is a common yell as they run around the yard. Everybody loves coming over to see my baby and talk about wanting to care for it. The differences I see are not in who the children see themselves as in fantasy play, but in smaller hard to quantify things. If I had to generalize I guess: Both genders will start or lead, but boys tend to lead with "shooter" games and the girls tend to be "heroes" and swoop in to rescue. It's only one school but I have seen many children from a variety of backgrounds.

[deleted] · 2014-01-30T04:01:25+00:00

Here's an article which quoted part of Gaiman's, and some of it aligns with my theory. I found it searching for Gaiman's quote.

[deleted] · 2014-01-30T04:10:16+00:00

So are you simply saving an observation, or asking PurplePill's opinions of it, or...?

Title	Gender differences in children's narrative fantasy
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	6
Comments	38
Date	January 30, 2014 3:56 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1wj19x/gender_differences_in_childrens_narrative_fantasy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/gender-differences-in-childrens-narrative-fantasy.286288 https://theredarchive.com/post/286288

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