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Modern Manhood

tintedlipbalm

June 12, 2017
19 upvotes
/r/RedPillWives
Archived from /r/RedPillWives

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Post Information
Title Modern Manhood
Author

tintedlipbalm

Upvotes 19
Comments 6
Date June 12, 2017 3:26 AM UTC
(9 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/RedPillWives
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWives/comments/6gprrn/modern_manhood/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWives/modern-manhood.208899
https://theredarchive.com/post/208899
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Comments

[–]tintedlipbalm[S] 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I linked this text as a suggested read in another thread but I think it can has its own post for discussion. Longish read from 18 years ago! And already criticizing the separation of the female and the feminine; the male and the masculine.

Particularly insightful:

You can make men pretend to be less dominant and less aggressive; you can make them pretend to accept a subordinate role in domestic life and a dependent position in society. But deep down, in the instinctual flow of life that is manhood itself, they will rebel. The unhappiness of men, Tiger argues, comes from this deep and unconfessed conflict between social pretense and sexual necessity.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Thankyou for posting this, it is really interesting, I found the ending to be very hopeful:

And here, surely, lies our hope for the future. When women forge their own "gender identity," in the way the feminists recommend, they become unattractive to men—or attractive only as sex objects, not as individual persons. And when men cease to be gentlemen, they become unattractive to women. Sexual companionship then goes from the world. All that it needs to save young people from this predicament is for old-fashioned moralists to steal unobserved past their feminist guardians and whisper the truth into eager and astonished ears—the truth that gender is indeed a construct, but one that involves both sexes, acting in mutual support, if it is to be built successfully. In my experience, young people hear with great sighs of relief that the sexual revolution may have been a mistake, that women are allowed to be modest, and that men can make a shot at being gentlemen

I also started thinking that maybe some of the 'nice guy' thing is like a messed up version of a gentlemen where they're trying to obey feminist ideas? Like their actions make sense if women are exactly the same as men and don't want any unasked for male attention.

[–]tintedlipbalm[S] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You know, that gentleman part was kinda harder for me. But it says a lot of our modern times when the very word makes me cringe because of how out of place it is. The author comes from a conservative perspective and not exactly red pill, and is also a man. I've noticed that men have this pedestal for betas, like they glorify and idealize them (and themselves as "good guy" betas). But then I also think it's true that for the large population of women greater betas are the most desirable.

I also related that paragraph to the Nice Guy. The modern backlash against nice guys is that they're seen as malicious for daring to want sex (or that they're only "nice" because they expect it in return). But it's not some new phenomenon, and it's only new that it failed as a strategy because frankly when women were softer it was enough for a man to be nice. There's no room anymore for men to show value within the beta constraints because women now inhabit their spheres. As put by the piece:

Men now encounter women not as "the weaker sex" but as equal competitors in the public sphere—the sphere where men used to be in charge. And in the private sphere, where an ancient division of labor once gave guidance to those who crossed its threshold, there is no knowing what strategy will be most effective. Manly gestures—holding open a door for a woman, handing her into an automobile, taking charge of her bags—can spark insulted rejection; displays of wealth, power, or influence are likely to seem ridiculous to a woman who herself has more of them.

It kinda changed my view of the Nice Guy. I only interpreted him as 'boring' before, but didn't take into account that boring was enough, because he had his world and that world was a mystery to women. So beta behaviors as sexual currency devalued that way. That in addition to the softening of men via feminized culture, being in bad shape etc.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think gentlemen were expected to be just nice from how they're shown in fiction, (my examples that I can think of would be Great Expectations, The Lost World and Pride and Prejudice). A gentlemen is sort of a socially accomplished person with the means of providing (so beta stuff I guess) but also has to be interesting enough that they don't get rejected in courtship and has to SAY they want to court a lady. So like the younger man in The Lost World novel goes off on adventure to prove himself as brave and manly really.

My big issue with 'nice guys' is the passive nature and the way it is weak, because there's no putting themselves at risk. But I LOVE the idea of proper courtship where a guy really is asking to be tested to see if he's husband material, and can be rejected safely!

[–]tintedlipbalm[S] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes but how much of "interesting" came from just existing in separate spheres and having that mystery? And I highly doubt day to day courtship was as riveting as in movies.

My big issue with 'nice guys' is the passive nature and the way it is weak, because there's no putting themselves at risk.

I agree this is is a huge issue with modern beta men, I was just pondering on how the culture shifted that devalued beta as currency. Like even women and men as peers and conceiving the 'friendzone' is such a modern thing.

BTW not arguing with you just trying to expand my thoughts.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't worry about arguing, I don't really know the answers on this at all!

I think maybe most courtship wasn't as romantic as in drama, but I feel that way of behaving would still be a much better one from our point of view, because it sort of forces a man to show what his intentions are and makes it much harder to be plated.

You might be right some of the mystery and interest came from sort of separate lives more, but I think a lot of the stories showing courtship do involve men who are leaders and the expectations would be for them to lead the household well.

Like even the bad matches shown in Dickens show an expectation that a man shouldn't be pushed about, I think?

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