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Impact of male circumcision on HIV doubted

[deleted]

February 24, 2012

24 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/news-7273-Circumcision%20HIV%20impact%20doubted/news.aspx

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Title	Impact of male circumcision on HIV doubted
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	24
Comments	28
Date	February 24, 2012 6:28 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/q3r95/impact_of_male_circumcision_on_hiv_doubted/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/impact-of-male-circumcision-on-hiv-doubted.1027133 https://theredarchive.com/post/1027133

Comments

[–]Eryemil 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EyesfurtherUp 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]omegaflux 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I take a dim view of religious circumcision, don't get me wrong, but there's plenty of both health-related and non-health-related reasons to argue against circumcision that we don't need to conflate the two by... I'm not sure what he was doing (aside from trolling), implying that Jews are secretly (or not-so-secretly, I dunno) controlling WHO?

Edit: I would not be surprised if it were true, for example, that Jewish doctors at WHO, after seeing the data from that study, shrugged and said something like, "Eh, hasn't done our people any harm-- maybe we should try it?" and started recommending it. If you see circumcision as harmless or even beneficial (I was raised Jewish, and Jews really like to try to find "practical" reasons for their weirder practices, like kashrut and circumcision), it's not that big a jump to, and, BONUS, it prevents AIDS! But there's a big difference between a cultural/religious predilection to seeing a practice as harmless (or good) and making a concerted effort, as you say, to push it on everyone else for health reasons. Jews like feeling special, we really get off on the whole "chosen people" thing.

[–]xXBlUnTsM0KA420Xx 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Some Jewish organizations promoting infant circumcision around the world:

http://circleaks.org/index.php?title=Shusterman_Foundation

http://circleaks.org/index.php?title=Operation_Abraham

Quoting an article:

I find it increasingly disturbing, the idea that there are Israelis, and Jewish people intent on evangelizing circumcision to other parts of the world. Shusterman Foundation paid Neil Pollock, a professional mohel and child circumcisor by trade, to promote infant circumcision in Rwanda. The Jerusalem AIDS Project (JAIP) created Operation Abraham, which is an organization whose sole purpose is to promote circumcision any which way it can. They've gone as far as Africa, Mexico, and even America to do just this.

A disproportionate number of "researchers" and outspoken members of medical organizations just "happen" to be Jewish. Aaron J. Fink, the very inventor of the idea that circumcision might prevent AIDS was Jewish. Stephen Lewis, former head of UNAIDS, is Jewish; he founded AIDS-Free World in 2007, and he uses this organization to gather funding for male circumcision programs. Daniel Halperin, a lead circumcision "researcher" is Jewish (his grandfather was a mohel). On May 28th 2010, at the UNC School of Medicine, Halperin lectured on "Moyels without Borders?: Barriers to Scale-up of Circumcision."

A newly-converted Jewish man wanted to force an unwilling 12-year old son to be circumcised. The son's mother didn't agree to the forced circumcision. So four powerful Jewish lobby groups (American Jewish Congress, American Jewish Committee, Anti-Defamation League, Orthodox Union) fought against the mother in the courts:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/pllgy/wtf_til_that_you_can_go_to_the_courts_to_force_a/

[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm a militant atheist, so I have no more use for Judaism than I do any other religion. However, the groups you link to appear to be fringe organizations without any kind of mainstream Jewish support or probably even notice. And while I'm not surprised Jewish lobbies sided with the father, they did so on "parental rights" and "religious freedom" grounds, only mentioning briefly the supposed benefits of circumcision. They were not advocating that everyone be circumcised, or for any kind of routine secular circumcision, but that Jews' freedom to practice their ritual circumcision not be abridged. In this particular case, as well, there seemed to be some question as to whether the boy wanted to be circumcised or not. The father claimed he did, the mother claimed he did not, but was too afraid to tell his father. The boy was finally allowed to speak for himself in a close-chambers session with the judge and settle the question that he neither wanted to be Jewish nor circumcised, and, in the end, it appears the child's wishes were honored.

This is not to say that it's okay to circumcise babies who cannot speak for themselves, or that religious circumcision is okay either. I'm merely questioning your assertion that Jews are perpetuating some kind of massive push to have everyone circumcised.

[–]omegaflux 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They were not advocating that everyone be circumcised, or for any kind of routine secular circumcision, but that Jews' freedom to practice their ritual circumcision not be abridged.

Actually in the story mentioned, they were fighting for the right of son of a Jewish-convert to be circumcised. And the son was no 8-day old newborn but a 12 year old.

In this particular case, as well, there seemed to be some question as to whether the boy wanted to be circumcised or not. The father claimed he did, the mother claimed he did not, but was too afraid to tell his father.

According to the father it did not matter whether the boy wanted to get circumcised or not.

The father Mr. Boldt, who is a lawyer and represented himself in the legal proceedings, said: "The child's wishes, while of course they should be considered, are not legally decisive or, legally speaking, relevant." And this was supported by the four Jewish organisations.

The boy was finally allowed to speak for himself in a close-chambers session with the judge and settle the question that he neither wanted to be Jewish nor circumcised, and, in the end, it appears the child's wishes were honored.

His wishes were honored? Not exactly true.

Both the Trial Court and Court of Appeals allowed the father to genitally mutilate the boy. It's only when the mother took the case to Supreme Court did the child's rights were honored (by that time the son was 14 years old). The son's mother is a great mother and should be commended for going through all that to fight for her son's rights.

"The Court overturned opinions of both the trial court and the Oregon Court of Appeals which had allowed the ritual surgery regardless of the child’s preferences."

This is not to say that it's okay to circumcise babies who cannot speak for themselves, or that religious circumcision is okay either.

What about circumcising older boys? If both parents had wanted the boy to be circumcised, this would have never gone to court, he would have been circumcised against his will and it would have been LEGAL. Males under the age of 18 have no rights to genital integrity.

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually in the story mentioned, they were fighting for the right of son of a Jewish-convert to be circumcised. And the son was no 8-day old newborn but a 12 year old.

Circumcision is part of (orthodox) conversion ritual. The man has a right to circumcise himself, and it's open to debate whether a 12-year-old boy has the right to want circumcision for himself.

According to the father it did not matter whether the boy wanted to get circumcised or not.

I read that part too, but it seemed kind of moot in light of the father also saying that the boy wanted to be circumcised, and the mother not disputing this, but saying the boy was afraid to tell his father he didn't want to be.

The father Mr. Boldt, who is a lawyer and represented himself in the legal proceedings, said: "The child's wishes, while of course they should be considered, are not legally decisive or, legally speaking, relevant." And this was supported by the four Jewish organisations.

Strictly speaking, in terms of medical procedures and religious ritual, he's right. The question is whether circumcision should be treated the same as forcing a child to go to church, or get a vaccine.

Both the Trial Court and Court of Appeals allowed the father to genitally mutilate the boy.

They also barred the circumcision from taking place until all appeals had been exhausted.

What about circumcising older boys? If both parents had wanted the boy to be circumcised, this would have never gone to court, he would have been circumcised against his will and it would have been LEGAL. Males under the age of 18 have no rights to genital integrity.

I have said repeatedly I'm against circumcision. I guess you missed that. All I am arguing against here is some kind of "Zionist" conspiracy that is pushing for universal, world-wide circumcision using health-based reasons such as AIDS/HIV prevention to justify. This case was clearly a case argued on "religious freedom" and "parental rights" grounds.

Outside of that argument, yeah, I agree completely, even if the parents were in agreement, the kid shouldn't be circumcised, period.

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[–]omegaflux 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]xXBlUnTsM0KA420Xx 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link