~ archived since 2018 ~

Some questions from Sweden- A Swedish newspaper questions A Voice for Men about activism targeting the SCUM video

avoiceformen

November 22, 2011

15 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/some-questions-from-sweden/

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

PDF TXT EPUB

Post Information

Title	Some questions from Sweden- A Swedish newspaper questions A Voice for Men about activism targeting the SCUM video
Author	avoiceformen
Upvotes	15
Comments	40
Date	November 22, 2011 5:45 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/mlnzf/some_questions_from_sweden_a_swedish_newspaper/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/some-questions-from-sweden-a-swedish-newspaper.1031398 https://theredarchive.com/post/1031398

Comments

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 14 years ago* (41 children) | Copy Link

Dude. I don't think AVfM is doing a favor for Nordic men's rights folk here. Throwing the "Feminist Saudi Arabia" quote, "threatening" with register-her etc. Not cool.

Though we have issues with our public sphere, we also have a lot of stuff working superb. Like no alimony, default and rarely overridden 50-50 custody, no jailing of people falling behind their payments, free legal aid for poor & no-income parents, free daycare, decent parental leaves for dads etc...

And for one thing, we don't keep public registries/black lists of sex-offenders. (though high-profile cases like Assange tend to reach the media). If you even have a legitimate use for a list of people (say, a customer registry), you need to make a notification for the authorities that you are collecting such personal data. Populating an online bullying-list is pretty universally considered vulgar and against the common sense of justice. We don't do that. Then some American vigilante who-knows-what-is-better-for-us comes and google-bombs the shit out of few women. Reasoning that Sweden is a feminist Saudi-Arabia?

I'm all in for working for a more international mens movement, but I don't think Paul is reading the map correctly here. It's a different front we are fighting here.

Edit: And just to pickle the americentric hive-brain of r/MR a bit more: The first parties in Finnish political system (and so far the only ones) to establish mens rights organizations within themselves were the leftist green party and the radical left party of Finland. (All parties have long had womens organizations and they are guaranteed 12% of the public party funding by law.) Mens rights is cool, trendy, sexy and novel. It's easier to conquer the "progressive" hearts first.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

We are getting close to Insane Troll Logic here. While I agree that it is good to have international coverage and interest towards these issues, Youtube or any other company operating within the borders of a nation has to obey its rules and legislation.

Even more importantly, activists need to be aware of the consequences of their actions. I really doubt most AVfM writers have much of a clue of the state of MRA-action overseas. Or even less about the cultural norms and attitudes with the intended means of action.

I'm all pro free-speech and civil-disobedience. Say, if a Swedish organization would establish a Register-her -esque service for shaming bigots - I would likely support such action. They have a decent understanding of the risks and norms they are breaking - and can be held accountable for overkills or possible violenence linked to their activism.

But when the Americans do it, I see shitloads of intentional misunderstandings, exagerrations, incorrect "facts" and propaganda, disgusting disregard for basic human rights of privacy, fair trial and personal safety and overall accountability. You don't have your balls on the line here. It looks cowardly.

Also, the interests American MRAs (to dismantle feminism and gendered justice system in US) and our MRAs (to dismantle feminism and gendered legislation in our corrseponding nations) can get in conflict due to the means of action. It is in your interests to have and portray your Great Devil (Sweden) as a cautious example to rally people for Jihad, whereas it might be more fruitful for Swedish MRAs to be more diplomatic. It is not in your interests to actually fix Sweden. You just need your propaganda.

I'm all in for international co-operation. It's just that I consider your approach is "dumb-as-fuck" and counterproductive to aid Nordic men's movement. And I try to explain why one size does not fit all. We have a lot of liberties and legal protection to ensure our right to act like idiots. It does not mean we should use them. I think whether it's legal or not or within our rights is way less important than asking "will it help us?"

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's just that I consider your approach is "dumb-as-fuck"

It's not my approach. I am not AVfM.

I think whether it's legal or not or within our rights is way less important than asking "will it help us?"

You did a good job in highlighting the differences in needs and approaches in the two different countries. For that reason there are two different answers to the question "will it help us". From here, calling out by name those who use U.S.-based media to advocate hatred and violence against men does look like it will help us, whether the perpetrators live in Sweden or not. The offending video is no longer on YouTube, and other groups who want to post similar material now have a reason to think twice about it.

These types of hate mongering feminists may act with impunity within Swedish law and custom, but when they post videos on an international U.S. based media site, they are no longer protected by Swedish law and custom. And actions such as those taken by AVfM may upset your Swedish sensibilities, but those aren't particularly relevant either. I agree that Americans should not meddle in Swedish affairs, but the offending video stopped being a Swedish affair the moment it was uploaded for the world to see.

As for the AVfM response being counterproductive to Nordic MRAs, I think you will have no difficulty distancing yourselves from the "ugly Americans".

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And actions such as those taken by AVfM may upset your Swedish sensibilities, but those aren't particularly relevant either.

Oh, I'm not Swedish btw. A Finn living in Central Europe here..

I agree that Americans should not meddle in Swedish affairs, but the offending video stopped being a Swedish affair the moment it was uploaded for the world to see.

It is not the video. It is about the privacy and personal safety of the film-makers which is very much a responsibility of Swedish justice system. Because they live in Sweden and hold Swedish citizenship.

As for the AVfM response being counterproductive to Nordic MRAs, I think you will have no difficulty distancing yourselves from the "ugly Americans".

And it is sad if that needs to be done.

U.S.-based media

Google has server farms all around the globe and they and their content are bound by the laws of their respective nations. (Facebook builds farms in Sweden, Google just opened a data center in Finland.) In a sense, it is true that a number of different legislations apply for international services and products. But when they are in conflict, the local law supersedes the foreign one. If Youtube wants to do business in Europe, they have to obey European law in addition to the US one. And the copyright-holders very much still have all their rights and protection by law.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CaptSnap 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Wasnt there a swedish documentary posted here a few months ago where a high-ranking women's rights minister or something said on camera that she believed there to be some kind of underground satanic sex rituals where men would sacrifice women and children? (Im really not making that last part up)

They interview this girl and she talks about how the women's shelter people were completely bat-shit conspiracy nuts and dragged her halfway across Europe while keeping her medicated all the while dreaming of some world without men. Anyway the whole point was about how bullshit the whole hysteria thing was and how overblown and politicized it was to insure all these bureaucrats maintained power and control. I mean its not some kind of official documentary it looked more like a student-piece but it was really well done. Of course if youre living there you would know more than I would but Im just saying whats out there.

Doesnt Germany have some kind of mandatory board policy where something like 40% of all the board members must be women (fuck qualifications) or something? (I recognize Germany isnt a Nordic country but with the exception of Norway they are also members of the EU)

Of course the UK isnt a Nordic country nor is it in the EU but I think you could write volumes on how crazy things have gotten there. I mean this was linked in the thread I just got out of, like I still had it open and hadnt closed it yet. There it is in the BBC, fuck men the only thing they do on the planet is make sperm. I know, I know its not them saying it, its just them publishing other people saying it...right. And then theres the story of the delivery driver who sees a little girl walking on the street unattended but is afraid to stop and help her because he might be branded a fucking pedophile, so the child wanders into a pond and drowns. So its not like these issues are completely alien to Europe, just possibly your corner of it.

And then yeah theres the whole Assange thing. Its rape in Sweden if you have intercourse without a condom, but only if you're a man? I dont know all the details but isnt that what it boiled down to on one of them? But they were all friends with him for weeks or something too? What kind of rape is that? (it really sounds like a pretty feminist-driven definition where "its rape if she thinks it is at any point during or in the next couple of weeks or years") I mean we have that same definition now over here so its easy for me to spot. On college campuses any intercourse is rape if SHE (not a man) feels like it is and she can consent while intoxicated (any amount) but she cant really "consent" and youll still be a rapist. Im serious.

I mean, Im not trying to be argumentative this is just stuff I hear from across the pond. But Im not convinced theres not a wee bit of a problem over there.

[+][deleted] 14 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]CaptSnap 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]CaptSnap 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I really appreciate your time and effort in responding and being so thorough.

Your post is actually REALLY helpful and in more ways than I would have thought. Its easier to point to systems already in place and say, "See! Look how they are doing it. It doesnt have to be one side vs the other." Like with the shelters for victims.

The gendered violence provision of the VAWA was shot down. The part where crimes committed against women were more serious because they were hate crimes. The Supreme Court took that one out in 2000 but the funding mechanisms remain and they are pretty universally gender-specific.

What are your university enrollment percentages? Here in the states we still have several forms of affirmative action for women even though enrollment is nearing 60% women. Theres still a huge push for women to get into STEM fields (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math).

Over here alimony isnt universal and is up to the states. Some states (like Massachusetts) had fairly crippling alimony for life statutes. We're actually making some progress on alimony over here. Mainly because now women outnumber men in the workforce here and are having to actually start paying it instead of getting it. HA! No, I dont know that but there is some headway on relaxing alimony in the states that have them. NOw child support or reproductive rights? Youre just fucked over here with that one.

That parental leave is really shocking. More leave for the father than the mother? In the US its difficult to even be seen in public with children as a man. Of course any kind of federally mandated leave is absolutely alien over here. So we're fighting on two fronts with that one.

Again I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to list the progress you guys are making. Thats really hopeful

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, if we are talking with a norwegian here; they (and us) have stuff like conscription active.

But then again, the equality among genders seldomly is the highest ideal and end for all. Stuff like safety, economic sensibility and overall well-being can force to make compromises. Being a nation of 5 million citizens inhabiting a land the size of Germany or France; and sharing 800 miles of border with a military superpower with a habit of green-excursions (the latest in 2008) kind of makes you prioritize.

(Not to say that having the nation with the world's most extensive natural resources and awesome people as a neighbor ain't great during the good times.)

Whereas it would be nice that women would be more involved in building the common safety and society (mandatory & universal citizen service and civil protection training?) and that the disponsable male would get more credit for the work and sacrifices made - it's not a perfect world we are living in. I'd love even more if my kids would not have to do gendered slave labor and put the well-being of others above their own; but then again it's not that big of a price to pay for a bit safer, unified and politically responsible society.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I mean, Im not trying to be argumentative this is just stuff I hear from across the pond. But Im not convinced theres not a wee bit of a problem over there.

I'm not saying there's no problem. I'm saying the problems are different. And the cures are different. The good thing about all encompassing state-feminism is that it's way more visible and forced to be around the most moderate form of feminism I have seen. But it's still problematic and needs to be disrupted.

As much as there is shitty interpretations of political correctness and such, there's also a fair share of public and legal protection to go around as well.

Of course the UK isnt a Nordic country nor is it in the EU but I think you could write volumes on how crazy things have gotten there.

UK is in the EU.

Doesnt Germany have some kind of mandatory board policy where something like 40% of all the board members must be women

Norway has such policy. (And I understood the French are introducing one) And well, they are having slight aftermaths for it.

I dont know all the [Assange-case] details but isnt that what it boiled down to on one of them?

Well, everyone agrees pretty much that the Assange case is likely bogus. However, the judical system is still obliged to investigate the case, which is currently not possible due to how things have proceeded. And the law can't make exceptions on proceedings just because the guy is famous and told the press his view. Around 10% of accusations end up with convictions.

There's a lot of fucked up stuff, but I guess sometimes things need to go bad before they get better. There's a decent amount of discussion on men's issues happening and the state-feminism thingy is constantly under fire. Last parlamental election in Finland saw a whopping 20% increase for this conservative True Finns party, (similar results have been observed from Denmark, Sweden, Norway...) because people do get pissed off with status quo of the establishment. And we happen to have the democratic tools to change shit.

But honestly. It's pretty counterproductive for people who don't know whether UK is in the EU, who've heard that Germany or some place had probably done something, who equates a Nordic welfare state with theocratic dictatorships to start messing with politics of a foreign sovereign nation.

[–]avoiceformen[S] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't see anyone messing with the politics of a foreign, just people expressing opinions about it.

Well, putting bounties on people and keeping (well, threatening with) an independent criminal registry/hitlist abroad IMO falls beyond the first category. Internet-crime is crime.

But if there were a place where people should mess with the politics of a foreign nation, Sweden would be a candidate. http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/bleeding-sweden-the-fall-into-ideological-depravity/

That is actually a pretty good article. Well done!

Those have been pretty much the same arguments which have appeared to the Finnish discourse of gender politics. We have a good amount of feminists defending the Swedish approach whom we try to debunk with facts. I have not seen such a comprehensive compilation of the bugs in their system on non-swedish sites.

Bookmarking this one.

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CaptSnap 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I really appreciate your input and Im definitely not trying to interfere with the politics of a foreign sovereign country.

I just wanted to post what I had heard and I admitted that it wasnt the best data and apparently my weakness in European politics was maybe too obvious. (you know fuck I really didnt know the UK was in the union. I have no idea why. oops)

Its fairly hard to get an understanding of whats going on over there so when I finally find someone on reddit that IS and is also talking about MR's I have to jump in and say well what about these things that Ive heard. That really helps put them into some kind of perspective.

I would actually be really interested if you posted articles relating to MR's over there when you came across them. I cant speak for everyone but this is the forum I go to for news on MR so it would be interesting for me. In some ways you guys are ahead of us so the problems you are facing now are probably some of the very ones we will have.

[–]DevinV 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]zyk0s 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes. I think Sweden is a few levels behind us right now... In Finland, just yesterday they announced the new composition of Council of Gender Equality within our Social and Health Ministry. The chairman and vice-chairman come from the board of Finnish National Coalition of Male Associations (established January, 2011). Though the persons are among the more moderate activists, it's a small victory for acknowledging the male-issues in the center of our political system.

That is why I strongly dislike the approach AVfM and Register-Her are pursuing here. The trends spread quickly in the Nordics and I'd say the MRAs have a pretty good silent sympathy of a considerable sect of people right now.

And though Sweden has its problems right now, I'd still choose their system rather than say, US or UK.

[–]avoiceformen[S] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, I suppose we all become acclimated to our own level of discomfort. By the way, I never made a comparison between Scandinavia and the US, UK. That sort of thing is pointless, IMO.

The mission of AVfM is to out ideologues who are spreading hatred. I understand that some will disagree with our tactics. As the saying goes, you can't please everyone (so you are better off not to try).

But I would argue that any argument that AVfM is a detriment to the advancement of Scandinavian men's rights is hollow and unsupportable.

When the "silent sympathy" you seem content with actually starts working for you, I am sure other targets will present themselves. In the meantime, AVfM will continue to do what we can to make these people uncomfortable, by whatever means at our disposal that are legal and non violent.

Nothing anyone has to say is going to stop that.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AlyoshaV 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]AlyoshaV 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link