"Tucker Max, dude culture, and the disappearance of manliness" (article from Toronto paper)

hobbyshop_hero · 2010-10-17T05:45:00+00:00

'dudliness' has succeeded 'manliness'.

I think that's brilliant right there.

kragshot · 2010-10-17T20:04:58+00:00

The feminists wanted men to stop being so "aggressive" in an attempt to control/curtail masculinity. This is the result. American men have decided to take a nice glass of "fuck-it juice," and we're getting on with our lives.

Women since time immemorial have complained about men finding outlets for their time and entertainment that didn't involve said man lavishing his energy and time on her. But now, we have the potential of an entire generation of men deciding to make this a lifestyle instead of a hobby.

And watch what happens when the male pill becomes a reality. If men gain substantial control over their reproductive choices, then we are going to see a major upheaval of the social order. They already passed legislation against foreign brides. I expect that they will continue to create legislation to further curtail male choices and options.

thetrollking · 2010-10-17T05:07:35+00:00

I think there is some legitimacy to the argument that men are sometimes taking a "opt-out" strategy here.

In my opinion the thought process is somewhat of "what's the point? if I work hard, she'll just spend it on frivolous crap. I'm not allowed to tell her what to spend money on because that's being controlling. If we get divorced she'll take half anyway. To society I'm just a type of cattle to generate money for someone else. Why should I work hard instead of just getting by? There is no reward for it. Everyone can't be in the top 10% getting the 80% of sex from women. It just isn't possible. "

Not saying I agree with it, because there are reasons to strive for oneself and NAWALT... but the external factors are somewhat gone. To put it bluntly, pussy just isn't worth the price these days and as a male you are going to be shamed for your gender anyway.

MSmincho · 2010-10-17T05:56:59+00:00

What does it mean to be a man?

It doesn't mean crying about how the world is unfair to men these days.
It doesn't mean refusing all responsibility because you shouldn't be expected to take it on.
It isn't about escapism or filling the void with nonsense.
It isn't about comparing yourself to women (or other men, for that matter) and seeing who has come out ahead.
It means finding what matters to you in the world, and having the courage to go after it.
It means not giving up on that thing, even if you have to you bloody your knuckles or take a shot to the jaw now and again.
It doesn't mean you have to win, or even be better than anyone. You just have to know in your guts that if you died today, you'd feel good about the effort you put in.

Being a man is about conviction, commitment, and doing the thing you say you are going to do.

maryjayjay · 2010-10-17T07:46:24+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2010-10-17T18:46:43+00:00

Under feminism men are damned if you do and damned if you don't. So why bother? If you beat a dog long enough he will eventually lose respect for you and turn on you. That's what's happening. Tucker is one example. Yale frats in the news chanting about raping women are another. Chivalry and responsibility are dying. So called Patriarchy supported the ideals of honor and virtue; both are now a joke replaced by discrimination, false accusations, and pervasive misandry.

Feckless · 2010-10-17T10:33:18+00:00

Men are free to choose their own life. If this means they marry young and have children or stay single and have mainly one night stands does not matter. It is their choice.

2010-10-17T08:58:47+00:00

This subreddit is really going downhill. Do you people live in a parallel universe? You act like someone is forcing you to act a certain way, when you are legally free to do as you please. Also, if your wife earns more than you and you divorce, she owes you alimony.

plesiosaur · 2010-10-17T17:14:48+00:00

My reaction to the classic ("grandfathers") approach to manliness:

provide for my family--I don't have one, but looking at my married friends the modern reality is the women are out working too; I wouldn't be the sole provider anyway
contribute to my church community--As an atheist I don't go to church. Kind of a shame; I could use more community in my life.
be an informed and active member of the body politic--while I agree with this, I must confess that politics bores me when not filling me with impotent rage.
defend to the death my family and country--family maybe, but if defending your country to the death is for chumps

Nope, I guess this doesn't match my experience much at all. Not sure that's so much good or bad as reflecting the massive changes over three generations.

thetrollking · 2010-10-17T19:58:45+00:00

...if you’d asked either of my grandfathers what it meant to be a man, they’d have pointed first, foremost and most importantly to responsibility — in their cases, to provide for their families, to contribute to their church communities, to be informed and active members of the body politic, to defend to the death, if necessary, their family and country.

WTF, men don't have oppurtunities to work in those environments anymore. The church caters to women, so do schools and the family courts. So men have decided to define what they want on different terms and why the fuck are they deserving of resentment? What do dude ever do to you? Dude culture doesn't encourage anything like rape so save the rape culture shaming.

Manliness gets a bad rap from almost all corners, and in many ways rightfully so. The bad old days of the patriarchy represented a monumental crime against women, and fit most men into a socially constructed straitjacket that kind of sucked too. The great gift of feminism (and of all the other isms that came with it) is the recognition that people should have choices about their lives, about what they want to be and do, and that those choices should not be limited by things like what sex you are or what the sex of people you like to sleep with is or what type of clothes you like to wear (or don’t like to wear).

So everyone except men should get a choice, especially white men. WTF? The fucking contradicitons in feminist articles boggles the mind. Men are supposed to have choices, oops, wait as long as they don't make any choices we dont' want them too...stop being uppity and get back in line you male slaves. Haha, just look at this paragraph:

It’s not as if men have dropped many of the old annoying characteristics of manhood. They are as competitive as ever, they are as lustful as ever, they still shun emotionalism and embrace codes and statistics and structures. It’s just that all the socially redeeming things that used to accompany those easy-to-spot external characteristics — things like a sense of honour and a feeling of responsibility to something greater than oneself, be it family or society at large — have been shrugged off like so much paternalistic baggage. To some large degree, Dude Culture has embraced all the entertainingly offensive trappings of the old idea of manliness (some of these increasingly appear to be inherent rather than socially constructed, which might explain their persistence) but has thrown out the few good qualities that came with it — the social imperatives to contribute[contribute to what?, added by trollking].

I actually didn't think much of tucker max but thsi line here is great:

And what did Tucker Max tell a crowd of university students earlier this year? “I can be the man I want to be, I can do the things I want to do and I can live the life I want to live.... I just have to stop believing the lies I have been sold, and stop caring what all those people think who don’t matter, and find the courage to go out and do it.”

He might be my new hero.

I thought this was interesting, does anyone know if she has covered it elsewhere?:

Well, as it turns out, some things have gone wrong. First, as has been widely discussed, women found that being allowed to pursue the things they wanted to do didn’t mean that anyone else would step right in to eagerly do the things they used to be responsible for — which leads us to the Mommy Wars, and the worrying imbalance in household duties, and the entire self-help industry devoted to teaching women how to juggle all the roles involved in an unrealistic quest to be a do-it-all superwoman. But that’s a whole other subject.

This too is interesting, good in my opinion and misandric as hell from this bitch:

Second — and a key contributor to the first problem — men in increasing numbers have just decided to kind of drop out of the whole battle of the sexes thing and play videogames (or beer pong, or fantasy football, or Dungeons and Dragons, or just their iPods) instead. When women decided to stop taking orders from The Man, men decided to stop being The Man and focus on being The Dude. As women have realized that with great freedom comes even greater and more frustrating responsibility, men have increasingly realized that they can chase their bliss and reach self-actualization without owning up to any responsibilities at all. This phenomenon is not widely discussed outside of Judd Apatow movies and Nick Hornby novels.

When this whole shit hole of a civilization finally collapses because of women and feminism, I hope this white knight suffers for this alone:

See, it’s silly to contrast manliness with womanliness (or femininity). Men haven’t avoided manliness to become more like women — if they had, we’d have no problem, really. They’ve avoided it to become more like children. And that is a problem, I think. And Tucker Max is just Exhibit A.

Men haven't fucking avoided shit, it was stolen from us and destroyed by baby boomer feminists. What fucking patriarchy, if it ever existed it sure as hell is dead today. Who the hell are these male or female feminists to define what maleness is?

calzenn · 2010-10-18T02:17:27+00:00

Women have been ranting for ages that they can and will do whatever they want, when they want and how they want thank-you-very-much and I have not read many articles talking about their "responsibilities" to much of any thing - except to themselves.

The rise of feminism it is said gave women choices to do what they wanted, and so well and fine that was...

But the freedom to do as you want goes both ways and men have seen the rise of divorce, jail for non-child support, loss of their jobs etc... and they opened their eyes up.

Is there a dude culture? Perhaps and who cares. Men are now doing what they want, when they want and how they want. Just like the ladies have been doing for a long time.

Women have enjoyed for quite a while that whole lingering "doing as my Grandad did crap" but that is fading as there is zero payoffs for a man being responsible, hard working and moral... he just gets laid off, divorced and his children taken away, but given a steep child support bill and no way to get a reduction when his job is gone....

No, I think men are just going to do as they want and if that means paying xbox and having a few beers and shunning a culture that for all intents and purposes hates them, well - so be it.

Stop complaining and stop the shaming language. Men are doing as they want and they learned this from feminism. yeah, the culture will go to shit and all, but it's all about freedom is it not?

AnnArchist · 2010-10-20T20:25:07+00:00

I love Tucker Max. Fuck what anyone says, I hope they serve beer in hell (movie, I didn't read his books) was fucking hilarious.

MSmincho · 2010-10-17T15:37:57+00:00

It sounds like another conservative bemoaning the fact that younger men are starting to realize that a life spent in service to others is not a life for a man, but for a dog. Look at this shit:

...if you’d asked either of my grandfathers what it meant to be a man, they’d have pointed first, foremost and most importantly to responsibility — in their cases, to provide for their families, to contribute to their church communities, to be informed and active members of the body politic, to defend to the death, if necessary, their family and country.

It's all about others. It's all about a man spending his life in service to a woman, to children, to the church, to the state. Men are supposed to live for others, and to die for others.

To the cold ever-night of intergalactic space with all of that. My only responsibility is to myself. Everybody else can take care of themselves.

Title	"Tucker Max, dude culture, and the disappearance of manliness" (article from Toronto paper)
Author	robots11
Upvotes	15
Comments	39
Date	October 17, 2010 4:57 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dsa57/tucker_max_dude_culture_and_the_disappearance_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/tucker-max-dude-culture-and-the-disappearance-of.1046787 https://theredarchive.com/post/1046787

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