I just got into a debate with some feminists, and things got really derailed. Help for future nuisances?

SirSkeptic · 2013-10-16T07:38:26+00:00

What sonja_newcombe said. Different feminists have different definitions of it but it'll never be definite. You'll have to ask for the personal definition of "The Patriarchy" from every feminist you argue with. And it'll change from day to day.
I don't understand the question.
No. There's lots of tricks that need to be brought forth in order to create the wage gap. If you look at the details they usually say "for comparable jobs" in the fine print of the research. They don't look at men and women doing the same jobs. In the past they've compared an inside, sitting down, secretarial job with a belly miner position with a high mortality rate and report it as "comparable jobs in the mining industry". In the UK they compared outside street cleaners with inside catalogers.
Yes. The emotional explosion generally comes from a belief they are being attacked as hypocritical (because they know they are). If you can get one alone and talk calmly to them over, say, some carrot cake they can become quite reasonable. Especially if you make it clear that you are not blaming them but the other feminists who have fed them all the lies. Do the Socrates thing; find a mutually agreed upon starting point (eg, should everyone be treated the same?) ask them lots of questions, and listen. Don't paraphrase to make them sound stupid, paraphrase to genuinely try to accurately depict what they are feeling. They soon realise that some of the beliefs they hold may not be entirely accurate.
Yes.

2013-10-16T05:40:59+00:00

They mean the system that allegedly oppressed women at the hands of men
In their minds, sure. In reality, no way.
No. Studies done on it are all flawed by looking at an average, or group various professions together, skewing the results.
Not that I've found yet

rightsbot · 2013-10-16T05:04:17+00:00

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cyber_rigger · 2013-10-16T13:05:30+00:00

"The only winning move is not to play"

2013-10-17T00:58:11+00:00

Rule #1, Don't debate on a feminist subreddit. You will get banned.

source; I have been banned from most feminist subreddits.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2013-10-16T07:36:38+00:00

The statistics are that men suffer more. All narratives that don't address statistics are merely bluffs. You can't address a bluff (addressing it empowers it) except to say it is a bluff.

Patriarchy is not supported by statistics. Men suffering outnumber men governing. Men suffering outnumber women suffering. Having an important job is not positive outcome in itself (it is only positive by leading to more money etc - but women overall are not poorer than men, and more men are in poverty).

Women making less money for the same job is not true, and isn't relevant as women on average have at least as much money as men, and less women are in poverty. Poverty has a large effect on life outcomes, the difference between middle and upper class has little effect on life outcomes.

"A fear of being treated like women" is an obvious tautology and nonsense high abstraction. The only way to deal with it is understand the person saying it kills their own brain cells doing so. It has no statistics of suffering/ consequences to back it up.

Their emotional response doesn't deny that you are a human with emotions too. Emotions that are purely obstructive are not honest emotions. Do you mean can you change their minds? No, they feel their own needs, they want them addressed (indefinitely), the in fact greater hardship of others is not their concern. There is no reason why these people would suddenly turn around and be reasonable just because they've been exposed to some reality, reality is pretty common. If you are being honest you are no more reasonable, you just happen to be right in this case.

(I think posts like this are not genuine, I think you are attempting to troll by providing some feminist arguments while pretending you are not doing so. I just answered for practice.)

FreeAdviceHere · 2013-10-16T15:28:52+00:00

The patriarchy describes a set of cultural norms/social behaviors that result from the general historical fact that men have traditionally held the majority of powerful positions in politics and business. Individuals will vary on how they prioritize those, describe them, feel the important effects are, and think it can/should be changed. That does not imply intent on the part of all men, but lack of intent does not equal lack of effect.
No. Sexism, in a reasonable interpretation, is a fear of not being treated like a person, with gender being less relevant than being human.
In many, but not all cases, yes. The numbers and anecdotes can be used to "prove" anything depending on what factors you emphasize, but a general wage gap in aggregate is real.
I don't know, am I being wildly emotional right now? Edit: this question is pretty much an example of my point in 2. The formulation of the question itself assumes man=less emotional, more rational & woman=too overburdened by feelings to have a valid debate.
That things aren't perfect for men? Yes. That feminists all want to subjugate you and have no valid points behind their arguments? No.

2013-10-17T01:02:22+00:00

Some people on this subreddit are really smart and want to help further equality between the sexes. Others are just sexist and using this as a cover. In a really obvious manner.

JayBopara · 2013-10-16T12:08:27+00:00

Dude, you are obviously very 'green' when it comes to the MHRM. I would be able to smash these feminazi easily in a debate, using the power of logic, reasoning and evidence. They would then lose their knickers and start calling me a "misogynist" etc. etc. They are all the same these feminazi - ignorant fools, misandrist fools, just plain sexist pigs.

Type gender wage gap myth into google, and read the articles by Forbes, Huffington Post.

Title	I just got into a debate with some feminists, and things got really derailed. Help for future nuisances?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	5
Comments	17
Date	October 16, 2013 5:02 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ojzyv/i_just_got_into_a_debate_with_some_feminists_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-just-got-into-a-debate-with-some-feminists-and.1161206 https://theredarchive.com/post/1161206

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