Womb envy: The cause of misogyny and even male achievement?

DistrictAccurate · 2021-07-28T08:51:30+00:00

It may well be that this is the point where I'm just to stupid to get it, but most of what's said in the quotes makes no sense to me even when just applied to the given situations, let alone reality. Additionally, there appears to be zero evidence for the existence of such envy (an envy that vastly exceeds the mere curiosity that "it would be cool to give birth" to almost gender dysphoric levels in order to be in line with some of these claims), even if its hypothetical existence could explain hypothetical issues in a hypothetical population. Same goes for any freudian stuff - until they present proper evidence for their almost religious beliefs, I will stay skeptical. Especially because I even disagree with the hypothetical explanations - i.e. even if there was such envy, I disagree that it could explain most of what it is claimed to. I fear that would be an oversimplification beyond usability, though maybe they'll change my mind one day.

lightning_palm · 2021-07-28T02:45:29+00:00

GENERAL

»“[…] we may note the relatively greater physical strength of the male, and the ability of the female to lactate and bear children. You might immediately think that these differences would compensate for each other considering different forms of envy, but that is far from the case. All things considered — and things move fast in the development of culture — it seems among humans to be a more important characteristic to bring the human race forth by giving birth to healthy individuals than to possess great and sustainable physical force. In all cultures, the former carries greater social and material significance than the latter and, what is more, motherhood yields a much greater existential and narcissistic satisfaction than to have a greater physical potential at one's disposal; this is also because this [greater physical strength] is a potential that has to be maintained which therefore requires a greater activity on the part of its owner — with whatever adversities and frustrations and the (gender specific) insecurity this occasionally has to entail.” (author's translation from Danish).«

»Klein (1957, pp. 62–67) described six defences against envy that she had found through her clinical work: 1) idealisation, 2) devaluation of the object, 3) devaluation of the self, 4) appropriation, 5) stirring up envy in others, 6) stifling feelings of love and corresponding intensifying of hate (also noted in Kittay, 1984a, pp. 106–120 and Ducat, 2004, pp. 34–44). Ducat (2004, p. 42) says Freud's notion of penis envy, and male privilege in general, are examples of the defence mechanism of provoking (or stirring up) envy in others, as described by Klein (1957, p. 65).«

»Stannard (1977, pp. 325–327) says that human insight into male psychology has been seriously held back by male inability to admit male desire to give birth, mentioning Erik Eriksson's analysis of Martin Luther's identity crisis as an example of the inability of Freudians' as well as Freud himself to acknowledge womb envy. Stannard (1977, p. 328) adds that men have instead projected their maternal drive onto women.«

lightning_palm · 2021-07-28T02:45:38+00:00

CULTURAL MANIFESTATIONS

»The couvade is a ritual whereby men simulate childbirth (Bettelheim, 1954/1962, pp. 109–111). The ritual is for men not women and, while the woman who has given birth to the baby may return to everyday activities soon afterwards, the man may take to his bed and be nursed for days or weeks (Bettelheim, 1954/1962, pp. 109–110). The couvade ritual has been mentioned by others, including Zilboorg (1944, pp. 281, 288–290), Klein (1937/1953, p. 35), Trethowan and Conlon (1965), Stannard (1977, p. 290), Chesler (1978, p. 37, 51), Kittay (1984a, p. 111), Corea (1985/1986, pp. 284–285), Ducat (2004, pp. 35–37) and Janowitz (2008, p. 125). Stannard (1977, pp. 290–291) also mentions circumcision and subincision rituals. Corea (1985/1986, p. 284–285) mentions that the couvade ritual has been noted on all continents in both ancient times as well as recently.«

»Bettelheim (1954/1962) also mentions subincision, circumcision, couvade, transvestism, blocking of the anus and rebirth rituals as rites whereby males can compensate for womb envy. Bettelheim (1954/1962, pp. 136–138) discusses the menstrual taboo and suggests that childbearing and menstruation may at some point in history have elevated women so much that men created taboos out of an envy of this elevation.«

»Bettelheim (1954/1962, pp. 148–149) suggests that the feats that boys have to perform in order to prove their manhood in modern society (such as playing football) may stem from a desire to deny any feminine tendencies by overasserting their masculinity. He argues that, with the many masculine prerogatives that exist in modern society, it is likely that girls' desires to be boys may be stronger or more openly displayed than boys' desires to be girls. Bettelheim (1954/1962, p. 156) also makes a connection between technology (a characteristic of modern civilisation) and phallic primacy. Bettelheim (1954/1962, p. 151) believes that if males were freer to recognise their desire to create life, they would not need to be emotionally distant towards women, they would not aggressively compete with each other, and they would not need to assert power through destructive inventions.«

»[…] Shabad (2008, p. 77) links this to a male journey from the maternal private sphere to the man-made public sphere, thus shedding further light on the female–male, private–public gender dichotomy (Lister, 2001/2004, pp. 323, 324).«

»Horney not only noted womb envy in her male patients, but also argued that creative work in men was a means of overcompensating for their limited role in procreation (Horney, 1926/1967b, p. 61): “Is not the tremendous strength in men of the impulse to creative work in every field precisely due to their feeling of playing a relatively small part in the creation of living beings, which constantly impels them to an overcompensation in achievement?” In another article, Horney (1926–7/1967c, p. 77) suggests that womb envy “drives the male to his productivity in the cultural area”.«

»Rank (1941, p. 236) argues that the project of self-creation and immortality (which can be regarded as a compensation for womb envy) leads to a need to eradicate his being born of woman: “Herein is to be found the dynamic drive for man's religious, social and artistic creativity through which he not only proves his supernatural origin (religion) and capacity (art) but also tries to translate it into practical terms of social organization (state, government)”. This is also noted in Shabad (2008, p. 77).«

»Fromm (1952, p. 199) links male need to produce in other ways (“with his mouth, his word, his thought”) with the lack of a womb and the inability to give birth to children (mentioned earlier).«

»Nelson (1967, p. 216) puts forward the “thesis that some pressure for productivity in the boy and man has roots in their envy of the woman's feminine functions”.«

»Ortner (1974, p. 75) says that the universal devaluation of women can be explained as a result of female reproductive physiology: “In other words, woman's body seems to doom her to mere reproduction of life; the male, in contrast, lacking natural creative functions, must (or has the opportunity to) assert his creativity externally, “artificially,” through the medium of technology and symbols,” Ortner (1974) links this to the nature–culture dichotomy that is sometimes used with reference to gender, linking woman to nature and man to culture (MacCormack & Strathern, 1980/1986).«

»[…] achievements in the public sphere could be a means of compensating for not being able to conceive and give birth to children. I would argue that this link could explain why women have often been (and are still, in some places) excluded from the productive sphere (and public life) and relegated to a life reduced to mainly nurturing and child-rearing activities (in the private sphere), as pointed out by Corea (1985/1986, pp. 169–170). In the same way as men are unable to obtain the natural female ability of conceiving and giving birth to children, perhaps they are likely to deny women the opportunity of achievement in the public sphere in return?«

lightning_palm · 2021-07-28T02:45:47+00:00

MYTHOLOGY, LITERATURE & EARLY SCIENCE

»Fromm (1952, p. 200) points out that, where the Babylonian myth ends (that is, by quenching matriarchal society and religion), the Biblical myth begins (that is, with almost no trace of a previous matriarchal stage). Instead, it is a male God that creates the world by sheer verbal action and Eve is created from Adam's rib (Fromm, 1952, p. 200). Lax (1997, p. 124) describes how womb envy is denoted in the New Testament story of God the Father creating Jesus by implanting the Holy Ghost into Mary, who serves only as a vessel.«

»Stannard (1977) brings further insight into the womb envy embedded in the Christian religion by mentioning the belief among early Christians that a person was not truly born until baptism (p. 293), adding that the Church has been regarded by some (such as Paul writing to the Galatians in the New Testament) as the mother of all people (p. 294), something that is noted by Corea (1985/1986, p. 285). Lax (1997, p. 125) also mentions the story of the stork who brings babies as another example of male envy, adding that the stork in flight is a phallic image that asserts male birth-giving and denies the role of the mother in procreation.«

»Warnes and Hill (1974, p. 25) note the story of how Zeus took from Semele the six month old foetus of Dionysus, sewed it up in himself and carried it full term. Another Greek myth relating to womb envy is that of how Zeus swallowed Metis, one of his wives (Ducat, 2004, p. 36), and later gave birth to Athena from his head (Chesler, 1978, p. 44; Ducat, 2004, p. 36).«

»Steven Lehman (1992) notes how Mary Shelley's book Frankenstein and H. G. Wells' book The Island of Dr Moreau both tell the story of how a crazed male scientist takes of the natural female function of creating life. As Johnson (1982, p. 8) argues (also noted by Lehman (1992, p. 49)) the story of Frankenstein is about “a man who usurps the female role by physically giving birth to a child”, adding that “it would be tempting, therefore, to conclude that Mary Shelley…transposed her own frustrated female penis envy into a tale of catastrophic male womb envy”.«

»Knowledge of the equal contribution to conception was not properly clarified until the second half of the nineteenth century (Laqueur, 1990/1992, p. 174). However, as mentioned by Lederer (1968, p. 156), Stannard (1977, p. 296), Kittay (1984a, p. 113), Corea (1985/1986, p. 295) and Ducat (2004, p. 37), womb envy has manifested itself in science in the form of the homunculus theory of human development. According to this theory, the offspring develops solely out of the male sperm's and the womb is only an incubator during pregnancy.«

Title	Womb envy: The cause of misogyny and even male achievement?
Author	lightning_palm
Upvotes	3
Comments	9
Date	July 28, 2021 2:45 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/Male_Studies
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/Male_Studies/comments/ot15fr/womb_envy_the_cause_of_misogyny_and_even_male/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/Male_Studies/womb-envy-the-cause-of-misogyny-and-even-male.1216245 https://theredarchive.com/post/1216245

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