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Agnostics, do you believe in the existence of at least 1 god?

Ok_Program_3491 · 2023-09-03T04:31:44+00:00

If so, which one(s)? View Poll...

Ok_Program_3491

September 3, 2023

3 upvotes

/r/AllPillDebate

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Title	Agnostics, do you believe in the existence of at least 1 god?
Author	Ok_Program_3491
Upvotes	3
Comments	22
Date	September 3, 2023 4:31 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/AllPillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/AllPillDebate/comments/168nh1x/agnostics_do_you_believe_in_the_existence_of_at/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/AllPillDebate/agnostics-do-you-believe-in-the-existence-of-at.1230739 https://theredarchive.com/post/1230739

Comments

[–]Diligent_Divide_4978SciencePill 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Rozmpounia 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]deathrattlestwice 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Program_3491[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]deathrattlestwice 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Program_3491[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]deathrattlestwice 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Program_3491[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]deathrattlestwice 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DraconianFlautist -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Valuable-Marzipan761 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Program_3491[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Clavicymbalum 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

While it is correct that the answer "I don't know" to the question "Is there a god" is sufficient to classify a person as agnostic, I'll add that this answer to that question not necessary and that therefore that question isn't best suited to test for agnosticism.

The person could just as well well answer "yes" and still be agnostic as long as they don't claim knowledge, given that a "yes" to the question "is there a god?" only gives information about whether the person accepts as true the claim that there is a god… that acceptance as true of the claim being exactly by definition what BELIEF in the claim is…

…as opposed to knowledge, which would, by definition, require not just that belief (acceptance as true of the claim) but an additional justification with sufficient evidence to causally conclude that the claim is necessarily true.

The better question to test for agnosticism is thus: "do you consider it KNOWABLE whether there exists a god or not?"

[–]Ok_Program_3491[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Clavicymbalum 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Program_3491[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Clavicymbalum 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Program_3491[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Belief is EXACTLY, by definition, the acceptance as true of a claim.

Right, not the claim that it is true. Just that you personally accept it as true.

Answering "yes" to "is there a god?" is exactly and solely an acceptance as true of the claim "there is a god"

Not only that but it's a step further and a claim itself that yes, a god does exist.

by definition exactly BELIEF in the existence of a god.

Belief that a god exists and a claim that said god exists.

It does not in any way constitute a claim of knowledge

If they're not claiming knowledge their answer to the question "is there a god?" Is "I don't know".

As opposed to that, the claim of knowledge, which isn't merely the answer "yes" to "is there a god?"

It is though. The only answer that isn't a claim of knowledge is "I don't know"

but to the question "do you KNOW there is a god"

That's what was asked. Is there a god. They either know that yes there is a god, no there isn't a god, or they don't know. I'd they don't claim to know they say they don't know.

[–]Clavicymbalum 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Right, not the claim that it is true. Just that you personally accept it as true.

Belief is seeing the claim as being TRUE… that's the only defining criterion for belief, necessary and sufficient, and it's totally independently of whether you run around expressing that view of the belief being true to others, which is what "claiming" means.

Not only that but it's a step further and a claim itself that yes, a god does exist.

… There is zero difference here as far as the information content about the position of the person: that is the exact same information as "Yes" to "Do you believe that a god exists":

a "belief" is exactly, by definition, the position of assigning "true" to be the truth value of a proposition.
a "claim" is exactly the expression of a belief to others. The POSITION is the same. More importantly: none of that has anything to do with the distinction between knowledge and belief, which has nothing to do with whether the belief is claimed or not, but with the existence of a sufficient justification to causally conclude the necessary truth of the proposition.

Belief that a god exists and a claim that said god exists.

Again: a "claim" is exactly the expression of a belief to others. So there is zero difference in the information here.

It is though. The only answer that isn't a claim of knowledge is "I don't know"

Wrong. While "I don't know" is indeed not a claim of knowledge, neither is "X is true" (e.g. "Yes, there is a god") That's an expression of BELIEF, NOT a claim of KNOWLEDGE.

That's what was asked. Is there a god

Not at all the same as "do you KNOW there is a god". The former ("Is there a god") only tests whether the person sees the proposition of the existence of god to be true or not… whereas the latter (do you KNOW there is a god?") asks whether the person has accessed sufficient evidence to causally conclude that that belief is necessarily true. That justification is what makes the difference between knowledge and mere belief (i.e. seeing the proposition as being true)

[–]DraconianFlautist 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Clavicymbalum 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Possibly, as agnosticism is compatible with theistic belief:

The condition for being agnostic is to hold the position (called agnosticism) that KNOWLEDGE (gnosis) about the existence or inexistence of gods is inacessible, at least to oneself and for now.

That position being a purely epistemological position about KNOWLEDGE, it is totally independent of whether the person holds a belief in the existence of at least one god (i.e. theist) or doesn't hold any such belief (i.e. atheist) and in the latter case whether the person believes that no god exists (positive atheist) or does not hold that belief either (negative atheist). Agnosticism is compatible with all of these options.

The only thing that agnosticism is incompatible with is a claim of KNOWLEDGE (gnosis) about either the existence or inexistence of gods. But such claims of knowledge are only held by minority subsets of theists and of positive atheists respectively, those minority subsets being referred to respectively as gnostic theists (not to be confused with Gnostics) and gnostic atheists.

[–]Rozmpounia 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link