[Debate] Returning to Bio-Troofs: TBP's case study debunking the Rationalisation Hamster and perhaps Hypergamy as pseudoscience. Has fem-centrism simply evolved from men losing their way and conceding to a global pussy pass? Or are women adept manipulators?

alreadyredschool · 2015-09-07T10:10:32+00:00

Evo psych is one way to explain this stuff. A possible explanation, another one would be upbringing.

Women are not held responsible all the time, that hinders their maturing process.

Hypergamy is just common sense: You can choose between 3 thins, A sucks, B is ok, C is awesome. What do you choose? C? Hypergamous sloot.

The hamster is something everyone has, blaming yourself is uncomfortable, so you dig up the comforting beliefs i.e. the world is unfair, not my fault, shifting to objective circumstances, loss of control... nearly everyone does this to feel better about themselves.

Xemnas81 · 2015-09-07T02:47:58+00:00

man can you chop this up into different sections for debate, I feel this is way to much information for a single debate topic on this forum.

wont_tell_i_refuse · 2015-09-08T11:21:56+00:00

I don't really believe women are "adept manipulators". They're just creatures of fee-fees.

The one person in their life who is manipulated is Beta Bux, and I don't think that's all that hard to see through.

Xemnas81 · 2015-09-07T02:21:53+00:00

Credit to Anon

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBluePill/comments/1glxy9/i_scienced_so_hard_that_the_trp_mods_wet_their/caly7lu

I'm cross-posting this in case theubercuber decides to be an uber douche and scrub the remains of the debate sub.

The TRP sidebar piece "Women: the Most Responsible Teenager in the House" is a rather problematic blog post. "Evidence" for its assertions include links to different manosphere blogs and quotes from the 19th century philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer (who, despite being influential and well educated, is by no means any sort of reliable authority on human development or neuroscience). This sidebar post, along with several other manosphere blog posts, are frequently cited by RedPillers to support the assertions that:

• Women stop mentally maturing at age 18, whereas men continue to mature their whole lives after "catching up" to women in their twenties.

• Being less mature than men, women make decisions based on emotions and instant gratification rather than rational thought and long-term benefit.

• Women are emotional; men are rational.

• Women are less intelligent than men.

Although the sidebar materials do not provide sufficient evidence to make a solid case for the above points, I concede that a lack of evidence doesn't automatically mean a theory (especially one that is, by its very nature, hard to prove) is wrong. Obviously there are differences between the genders, but how are we different? And do those differences extend to our emotional maturity and the quality of our decision-making skills? Let's explore some different disciplinary approaches to the subject.

Comparative Neuroanatomy & Biopsychology: Do You Even Science, Bro? Unlike sane people, I get a warm fuzzy feeling of happiness and a tingling in my loins when I look at scientific texts. For this reason and this reason alone, I will begin my discussion with a look at men and women's brains. Spoiler: They are different. Here's how!

• Men have relatively (~10%) larger brains than women overall. Yes, relatively larger brains correspond with greater intelligence when comparing organisms. However, not all areas of the brain differ equally between the sexes. In addition, neuronal densities vary by region between the genders. For example, this study found that women have an approximately 11% greater overall neuronal density in the cerebral cortex, which may offset the difference in overall size.

• Controlling for size, women have a higher percentage of gray matter (the computational centers) and men have a higher percentage of white matter (the brain's connective "wires"). In addition, women's performance on cognitive tests increases at a greater rate with increases in white matter volume than men. This suggests that, in order to compensate for a smaller total volume, women's brains use white matter more efficiently. Source

• To be clear, I should mention that there are no significant differences on average between men's and women's overall performances on cognitive tests. Men tended to perform better in spatial tasks, and women performed better on verbal tasks. Same source as previous bullet

• Behavior-wise, there is some truth to the "women are more emotional" argument. Women perform better in speeded emotion recognition tasks and are more expressive than men. Women are also more prone to clinical depression, and mood fluctuations based on menstrual cycles have been documented. Men, on the other hand, tend to be more aggressive and are responsible for a greater number of violent crimes. Source

• Adjusting for intracranial volume, women have larger orbital frontal cortices relative to amygdala size. To clarify, the orbital frontal cortex plays a role in social behavior, emotional functioning and higher order cognitive skills, such as reasoning and decision making. The amygdala plays a primary role in memory processing and emotional reactions. Although exact functional/behavioral relationships have yet to be discerned, having a higher ratio of orbital frontal cortex to amygdala volume has been hypothesized to be related to better recognition and control of emotions. This is consistent with the observation that women are less likely to act on violent urges but runs completely counter to the TRP notion that women are slaves to their emotional impulses. Source

This just about wraps up my science lecture, but I'll be back after a quick jog to edit and follow up with some demographic/behavioral stuff. Removes panties and gyrates

Sociology & Economics: Responsible Behavior and Decision Making in Context It's a little tough to be completely objective while judging the quality of women's versus men's behavior and decision making skills. Furthermore, it's hard to find large bodies of data where people can compare the decision making skills of statistically significant bodies of men and women. That being said, I did manage to find some sources that shed light on the subject.

• In positions of authority in business, women are more likely to make decisions based on "complex moral reasoning" than their male counterparts, who tend to adhere to a more normative "by the books" approach. Complex moral reasoning is described as "making consistently fair decisions when competing interests are at stake." Source

• Having female directors in businesses and corporations correlates with better financial performance. In a survey of Fortune 500 companies, boards with high female representation experience a 53% higher return on equity, a 66% higher return on invested capital and a 42% higher return on sales (Source can be retrieved here). In addition, female representation in leadership positions correlates with a substantially reduced risk of bankruptcy (Source can be retrieved here). Correlation is not causation, but it doesn't really look like the women helping to run these companies are making terribly bad decisions.

• In many poverty alleviation projects in developing countries, cash transfers are frequently targeted toward mothers rather than fathers because it is commonly believed that they are more likely to make financial decisions in the best interests of their children. There are mixed reports regarding how true this is.

• Targeting cash transfers to women appears to improve child nutrition and health. This is not inconsistent with the TRP-supported notion that women love their children and want to act in their best interest.

• Conditional cash transfers to women through the PROGRESA program in Mexico are more likely to result in business investment and investment in small livestock. In studies of this same program, it was also found that an increase in a woman's share of the household income had a positive impact on children's clothing and a negative impact on alcohol consumption.

• Before anyone jumps to any conclusions about the poverty alleviation studies, these findings are somewhat ambiguous and they are mixed depending on the program and location. The PROGRESA cash transfers to women were still going to households where men were present, so men still likely had a role in decision making. Also, men in a Sri Lankan survey were found to have better success with micro-enterprise grants than women. Overall, the costs of enforcing gender-specificity in these types of programs probably outweigh any benefits. However, the data does strongly suggest that women are just as capable of making responsible decisions as men. Here is the review I got all this information from.

I hope you enjoyed my wall of text. I welcome any rebuttals and anxiously await further discussion.

TL;DR The TRP sidebar post claiming women are less mature and less rational than men does not stand up to actual evidence.

CisWhiteMaelstrom · 2015-09-07T03:22:17+00:00

It’s fair to say that the notion of being ‘traded up for someone better’ is something which the ECs and gods of the Manosphere, admittedly versed in the Machiavellian’s Bible AKA Robert Greene’s 48 Laws of Power, may be using this (pseudo-scientific?) concept in order to exploit young and vulnerable men’s insecurities and have them join the fold. After all, who wants to feel like the person they love views them second best? Therefore I still have to approach this idea with caution,

First, nothing in TRP is a pseudoscience. It's not any kind of science. It's an analysis of what the rational thing to do is from both a position of reproductive scarcity and surplus and the subpositions therein. It's also a pool of men's experience. Nobody claims that it's science.

Second, this is a strange reason to approach an idea cautiously. It's more of a "if the manosphere is predatory and conspiratory, here's how." It doesn't actually give any reason to believe that it is conspiratory or predatory and thus it's not clear why it's relevant. I can also assure you that I've never though of how to con people into following me; I always just try to help. Moreover, don't you think it'd get out when someone graduates to the upper level and is let into the fact that it's a conspiracy? Wouldn't they say something?

Thirdly though, it doesn't actually give any reason to rethink the phenomenon itself. It doesn't go after why it'd be rational to have a dualistic mating strategy, it doesn't offer an inherent contraction, it doesn't challenge the observable phenomena of sleeping around in your early 20s and marrying a stable guy later on... it really poses no challenge at all to TRP.

The crucial comment was deleted from RPD surely before it was shut down, but I'll reproduce it in the comments section, from the 1st link, post is too long at present (it's probably on PPD a few months ago)

Saying that women are the most responsible teenager in the house doesn't mean that they're cognitively deficient, like the post seems to be debunking. It's saying that they act like children by not doing shit like being agents, which that post doesn't address.

Both of these in a contemporary form work off an empathetic paradigm: i.e. emotion. But women actually have BETTER emotional regulation and impulse control than men on average!

Wait, what's the evidence for this? Women do shit like break down crying and running away at the first sign of danger. That can't possibly be emotional regulation. They've got no frame.

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