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Stand against Victimhood Culture!

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May 4, 2020
116 upvotes
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Title Stand against Victimhood Culture!
Author Egalitarianwhistle
Upvotes 116
Comments 18
Date 04 May 2020 06:58 PM UTC (4 months ago)
Subreddit antifeminists
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/706577
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/antifeminists/comments/gdhp72/stand_against_victimhood_culture/
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[–]lord_starla11 points12 points  (25 children) | Copy

[woman speaking] I completely agree with the statement, that you cannot be empowered if you think of yourself as a victim. This way of thinking just keeps feeding the idea that everything that happens to you isn't your fault, isn't your responsibility. You'll keep looking for solutions outside of yourself, looking for people to help you, instead of helping yourself. Cry about how the world, and men in particular, are just being cruel to you or don't understand you, occulting your own responsibility in what happens to you. By the way, I've suffered much more abuse from women than I have from men in my life. Actually I've never been abused by any man at all. I acknowledge I'm very lucky in that way and I certainly don't want to diminish the reality of women who have been abused by men, that is absolutely horrible. But it's just to say, both men and women have the potential to be abusive. People can be abusive, period. I just feel that men are on the spot for this, while I think abusive behaviors in women are not pointed at enough in comparison. You can find a lot of things written about "toxic masculinity" etc., what about toxic femininity?? I've taken a little detour here, but the victim mentality is deeply rooted in my way of thinking and I'm struggling to get rid of it. I've done many things that I'm highly ashamed of, I've hurt people (men and women) out of pure selfishness and entitlement and I think I wouldn't have done that if I had looked for examples of women who have their sh** together and apply some strong principles and moral values in life. I feel that there are more examples of these among men. I might be wrong though, I'd be happy to find opposite arguments, and especially happy if you could share examples of women who have inspired you in becoming better persons.

[–]boobygotchi1 point2 points  (24 children) | Copy

ohhhhh shit, yeah i definitely misinterpreted what the post was trying to say. i thought that they were saying that you cannot be empowered if you were ever a victim. i just don’t agree with the statement that they made about feminism being seen as victimhood? also could you please explain more about toxic femininity? i’m curious as to what that would look like.

[–]lord_starla1 point2 points  (23 children) | Copy

hi boobygotchi, thanks for commenting. I do not consider myself a feminist and I haven't dug feminist theories to a high extent, although my work as a scholar in social sciences and treating "feminine subjects" has led me to read a few things. I'm usually reluctant to taking a feminist stance in my publications, although I feel a lot of pressure to do so from my peers (sometimes they're right about some specific things, but not all the time according to my observations ). But to answer your question, I find the general feminist discourse very complacent towards women and I feel that the core argument stems from an ethics of selfishness. I observe that it is a lot about : "do what you want to do", "don't let the man rule your life" and that sort of things. When is it about: helping people? Try to control your emotions so as to better serve your community? Don't be a slave to your emotions? Being emotive is celebrated, but in many cases it leads to catastrophic situations. Now regarding academic publications and more "intellectual" publications, I've mostly read the work of Carol Gilligan, and I'm sorry, her stance doesn't make sense to me. She criticizes the justice system saying that it's entirely based on abstract masculine values of justice. Her argument, if I understand well, is more something like : "Female justice is about caring for your relatives. Emotions are fleeting and therefore the justice system should adapt to that." Excuse me...what?? This way of thinking may well apply to clans or gangs, but not to a civilization. You need abstraction to function. Moreover, if you look at how divorces a treated in the justice systems nowadays, women are way more favored than men. Women are often prioritized to have custody of children and men have to pay a pension for them. That's why so many guys end up in communities like MGTOW and radicalize themselves. Now regarding toxic femininity, it's not as different as toxic masculinity, except that it's obviously harder for women to rape men than the contrary. Women may not have the same kind of impulsions, but can be equally perverse. There are many cases of men under the spell of narcissistic women who sap their men's confidence, confuse them and make them their slaves. In some cases they get beaten up as well. When I was a very young child, I was abused by a female caretaker who would lock me up in a room and beat me for no reason, humiliate me etc. I had a friend who was very nice in appearance but under the radar was very manipulative and gradually worked psychological tricks on me to make me feel less and less confident and make me her subordinate. It's a lot about control. She drove her boyfriend crazy. She also had many qualities and I still lover her even if we're not in touch anymore, but I can't deny the reality of these things that she did. I'm just saying that violence isn't necessarily physical (although my own example shows that women can be physically abusive) by psychological and emotional abuse is real and some women are extremely skillful in this area and can enslave both men and women in a toxic relationship. There are also documented cases of women raping children. So abuse can be found among both sexes!!

[–]Andieleaandie3 points4 points  (19 children) | Copy

I don’t think it is hard for women to rape men/boys at all, in fact, I would challenge, it probably happens just as often. Take in account of all the female pedophiles (it’s a disgusting and alarming amount), all those women who take advantage of young boys in adolescence and face significantly less severe punishment, there are also women who rape girls with objects or aid in assisting rape. Not to mention, women who “trap” men, waiting until they are inebriated or simply lie to engage in sexual activity using altered or no protection in the hopes to get pregnant, and like you mentioned abusive women in general. In my opinion, I don’t believe in toxic femininity simply based on the fact, I don’t believe in toxic masculinity; it’s a stupid made up concept created by feminists to further their agenda of destroying men. However, if we were to point out “toxic femininity” to the degree of “toxic masculinity” and the way to which it is characterized, I would say, (the social norms harmful to society), the way women attack each other verbally, physically, and even what’s put into cyberspace about other women. It’s as asinine to hear women say unobtainable body standards were solely created and perpetuated by men, when it’s not the case at all. Women, by far, are the most critical and insensitive to other women in general. For the most part, things like “drama,” “cattiness,” and “gossiping,” are traits almost exclusive to women/girls. Women harm society as well by getting less harsh punishments in comparison to their male counterpart on literally every type of crime including murder and rape... shouldn’t it be equal? And the very alarming statistic that women are more likely to kill their own (or someone else’s) children than men. Again, I don’t believe in toxic anything, humans in general can be toxic, doesn’t mean we have to put a gender on it.

[–]boobygotchi1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy

yeah it is disgusting to even imagine all of the pedofiles and abusers that are out there getting lighter sentences simply because of their gender. like i said in my last reply to the original comment, both genders should get punished equally. i would like to believe that every sane person believes that aswell. i might have to disagree with your toxic masculinity/femininity statements. i’ve seen what toxic masculinity has done to men in modern society (ex. not letting boys express themselves, not letting them let out their emotions, not allowing boys to enjoy activities that aren’t “manly”) and it’s awful, it goes much deeper than it being another idea by toxic feminists to destroy men. if anything, it’s meant to address an obvious issue in today’s society. i think that you’re seeing toxic femininity as internalized misogyny, girls putting incredibly high standards for eachother and constantly putting eachother down is just them seeking male validation. i agree that anyone can be toxic but the real issue is “why are men and women toxic”, once you start looking into the “why” you’ll see that is rooted into toxic masculinity and internalized misogyny.

[–]Andieleaandie2 points3 points  (17 children) | Copy

Honestly, I don’t have the patience to write out precisely why everything you said is inaccurate. (Not trying to sound or be rude, just tired) We’ll simply have to agree to disagree. I will say, however, I don’t believe in “patriarchy” and internalized misogyny is BS, you are your own person- that is a huge problem these days with people not taking responsibility for their own actions. Women put other women down because of an innate or biological sense of competition. Because when it all really comes down to it, science always wins, and we are biologically hardwired to do and act in specific ways, we just have an extra sense to be able to manipulate and maneuver techniques to benefit ourselves in specific ways (mating process) that fit our modern civilization. I understand wanting to put a name and face to what is wrong with society but, it is NOT just any one single thing wrapped in muscles and a chiseled jaw line. Men are not the problem and your logic does not fit considering the drastic difference in how well women do in society in comparison to men (speaking specifically about the U.S.). And finally, you speak on how you personally, have seen what toxic masculinity has done to men in modern society... I’d like to point out men were a lot more chivalrous, romantic and kind to women not even thirty years ago, what changed? Modern society has been pushing this “misogyny” thing for a long time, why haven’t we seen women fail as much as or more so than men in today’s environment? Because it has nothing to do with masculinity considering men were much more so in the past, “weak times create weak men...” we have a generation of people who are now incredibly self centered, entitled and that is why you see the problems you think are misogyny. I’m not one for anecdotal evidence but similarly to you I have seen what “toxic femininity “ looks like, (again I don’t believe in that terminology, using terms to better acknowledge what we’re discussing), it’s called modern feminism and it hasn’t made women better, it has made them angry and bitter and if you say anything that goes against their narrative you are damned. I can speak to this very well considering I was a hardcore feminist while in college, it wasn’t until I realized I was almost thirty, with no kids (had an abortion when I was 19- biggest regret and mistake of my life- they don’t tell you that in the clinic) I have no prospects for a husband, because what was I doing? “Building my empire,” “I don’t need a man,” and “my body, my choice,” right? This was toxic, my way of thinking as a feminist was toxic. And what was the example I was setting for younger women and girls? It’s okay to sleep with whoever you want, if you get pregnant kill the baby, live your life... not, be with someone who loves and wants to be around you. Don’t act like you don’t need someone as a partner because then they will leave for someone who does want and need them, children, though they’re difficult to raise at times, they are a blessing especially when you have found the right partner to have a life with. I’m not demonizing sex btw, it’s cool to sleep with whom ever, but accept responsibility for whatever happens after. Anyway, like I said agree to disagree friend, hope all is well .

[–]boobygotchi1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

yeah that’s cool, all is well. it seems like we’ve both just grown up in different environments were educated differently. it’s chill, have a good day.

[–]motorola_phone1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy

what's wrong with "my body my choice"? what's wrong with "I dont need a man"? what's wrong with "I'm building an empire"? I believe all of those things are more important than "prospects for a husband"

[–]Andieleaandie0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy

I was pointing out my way of thinking was toxic, because I had grown to hate a group of people and held them personally responsible for problems in my life that had nothing to do with them and everything to do with my actions. And I’m sure I don’t need to point out, in regards to your statement, “I believe those things are more important than ‘prospects for a husband,’” is entirely subjective as was my statement which I mentioned was anecdotal and solely based on my feelings not anything else... so I guess, I’m glad you have an opinion on something? “My body, my choice,” Is a moral standing, I don’t intend on changing your mind nor could you change mine, it’s simply a preference and I prefer to be pro-life. And I support your decision to be pro-choice... free country and what not, don’t expect me to protest against you because I couldn’t care less what you stand for just as much as you feel the same. Why would you see what’s wrong with the other two statements when you said you think they’re more important than finding a life partner? Fundamentally, we’re on opposite sides of the spectrum, you place value on modern feminism and I place value on traditionalism.

I suppose, in short, I don’t think those things are more important than “prospects for a husband.” To each their own.

[–]motorola_phone1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy

I'm just saying that the reason you gave up those earlier beliefs shouldnt be for the purpose of finding a man. a good life partner would support one in those beliefs.

(and this is not at all intended to dismiss your beliefs but believing in the right to an abortion for others even though you disagree with it yourself is called being pro choice)

[–]Andieleaandie0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

Also, what would you say to a man who is supportive of you “building your empire,” let’s say hypothetically, you’re going to school and you got your degree, landed an amazing job and now you’re making seven figures. You buy a beautiful home and an awesome car (or whatever makes you happy, lol I love tiny homes), and everything is great you built a wonderful “empire!” Now what happens when that partner wasn’t involved in this, yes he was supportive but, he didn’t pay for anything, watched you rise to the occasion but, wants to continue the relationship. He wasn’t as motivated and gets a little more than minimum wage... would you stay with him?

(Just out of curiosity, not trying to be a troll or anything)

[–]Andieleaandie-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Sure, but being a good life partner yourself would entail needing that person, needing a man to fill whatever holds you back emotionally and physically is a good thing. Why would a man stick around if I was constantly saying, “you’re great and all but I don’t need you,” how would you feel if you had a partner who said that to you? And you can build the grandest empire on your own for sure but, when does it stop being yours and starts being ours? And I was trying to simply be polite while acknowledging your beliefs as well. I don’t believe in abortions at all, if it were up to me, I would take your ability to be pro-choice any day of the week, so no I am not pro-choice just saying I support your right to have an opinion even though I think it’s wrong.

[–]boobygotchi0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

i’m really sorry that you had such awful relationships and friendships with women in the past. i hope that you’ve been able to heal and fully recover from those experiences. but yeah i totally agree with your statement of the feminist movement not actually pushing the right idea of equality. women do tend to be favored in the system and it’s really shitty. any rational feminist would want to destroy that favoring of women and work towards a truly equal system. it’s sad to see that the feminist movement got twisted into an “only benefitting women and destroying men” type of thing. i do consider myself a feminist, however i don’t agree at all with the more extreme side of it. thank you for explaining what toxic femininity is for me. yeah i also agree with you on this, anyone can be an abuser. it’s devastating to hear about cases where men are dismissed because it was a woman that was abusing them. both women and men can be rapists and they deserve equal punishments in the court system.

[–]lord_starla0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for your answer. I'd be curious to know about what you call the "extreme side" of feminism, and on the opposite, how you would qualify the more moderate feminist views that you adhere to, what are the points that they make and that resonate with you?

[–]boobygotchi0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

yeah totally! i think that the more extreme side of feminism is the side which constantly demonizes men and blames them for every problem. also the fact that theyre constantly trying to find problems in things where there really isn’t. im sure you’ve seen articles by buzzfeed stating that ice cream is sexist, and i just think that that’s the reason why feminism isn’t taken as seriously. not the mention that the extreme side also tends to reverse what they originally wanted (equality) by never letting men speak on their own issues and ignoring that men do have some issues in society as well. i would like to think that i am a more rational feminist (?) i believe that both genders should be treated as equal. i want victims of both genders to feel safe when speaking out about rape/ abuse and for men to also feel safe expressing themselves. it also goes deeper than that, i really believe that the court system should change. women usually tend to be favored and male victims are almost never taken seriously. i believe that women should be given respect in today’s world and that they deserve to feel safe in today’s world. i just want men and women to be equal not for one gender to be above the other :)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed. If we as women stop seeing as yourselves as needing to displace men in society in order to carve out our own identities, we’ll be a lot better. I for one would never want to be cast in a reboot of a movie that had a men’s cast just so I can feel like I ‘overcame sexism’ lol



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