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Rational negotiation over sex defies our human impulse | Australian feminists are pushing the "women as helpless victims" narrative and demanding rape laws be changed to "enthusiastic consent" standards.

EricAllonde

May 12, 2018

10 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://archive.is/JvzBJ

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Title	Rational negotiation over sex defies our human impulse \| Australian feminists are pushing the "women as helpless victims" narrative and demanding rape laws be changed to "enthusiastic consent" standards.
Author	EricAllonde
Upvotes	10
Comments	27
Date	May 12, 2018 5:01 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8itxmv/rational_negotiation_over_sex_defies_our_human/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/rational-negotiation-over-sex-defies-our-human.901379 https://theredarchive.com/post/901379

Comments

[+][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

As a gay guy I find this all bullshit.

It's not that hard to tell when someone really wants it, when someone is too drunk or ambivalent to know what they want, and when someone doesn't want it. You just have to pay attention.

Likewise, I know what it's like to wake up knowing I've been taken advantage of, when I made a decision I regretted and when I wasn't in the mindset to make a decision at all. Fare thee well, alcohol, both love and bane of my youth.

Look, this just isn't that hard. Straight guys: are you sure enough that the woman actually wants it such that you'd be willing to stand trial for rape if you get it wrong? Yes: proceed. No: double check or back off.

It is literally that simple. And if you're bad enough at telling in the first place that you need this algorithm, maybe work on reading human bodily cues so that you both get laid more often and worry bout whether it was rape or not less.

[+]Esoteroticata1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

How many women have you slept with?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[+]Esoteroticata1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

What fraction of the people you've slept with have been women, then?

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[+]Esoteroticata1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Presumably your experience/advice, "as a gay guy" derives from fucking other men and probably is roughly as relevant to fucking a woman as, well, fucking a gay guy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]mwobuddy 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]EricAllonde[S] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Straight guys: are you sure enough that the woman actually wants it such that you'd be willing to stand trial for rape if you get it wrong? Yes: proceed. No: double check or back off.

Frankly, this is stupid. It sounds like you haven't spent any time in this sub at all, and you're completely unaware of the many, many examples that have been discussed here.

A woman may indicate clearly that she wants to have sex, so clearly that her male partner would be certain... until her boyfriend finds out that she cheated and then it becomes "rape".

A young woman may indicate clearly that she wants to have sex, so clearly that her male partner would be certain... until her religious parents find out that she's no longer a virgin and then it becomes "rape".

A woman may indicate clearly that she wants to have sex, so clearly that her male partner would be certain... until she gets together with her feminist friends who are steeped in victimhood culture and then it becomes "rape".

...and so on. It is nowhere near as cut and dried as you're trying to suggest.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]EricAllonde[S] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]EricAllonde[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

By your logic, false rape accusations are more common than murder, so perhaps we shouldn't be concerned about the crime of murder and we don't need to prosecute murderers?

Fortunately, the people that write our laws don't disregard entire categories of crimes simply because a feminist thinks that crime isn't committed frequently enough to worry about.

But still, false rape accusations likely comprise somewhere between 8% and about 30% of the total. Wherever it sits in that range is still a significant percentage.

And you are doing the feminist/left-wing group identity thing: "Some men are rapists, therefore all men are collectively guilty and thus we don't have to care about other men who are falsely accused. They share the collective guilt of their gender, so fuck it - let them rot in jail. They can pay the price for being male in place of some other rapists who were never convicted."

In short, you're being a cunt. Stop it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]EricAllonde[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RapeMatters 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]HappyCakeDayBot1 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RapeMatters 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]RapeMatters 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Would you falsely claim someone you didn't like raped you?

Me? Not personally no. I'm not a fan of using the law to punish people because I hate them.

However, others do not feel similarly.

https://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/25/woman-admits-that-she-falsely-accused-convicted-high-school-student-of-rape-after-he-serves-his-time-in-jail-woman-keeps-1-5-million-award-as-rape-victim/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5190501/Student-wrongly-accused-rape-calls-anonymity.html

Typically? Of course not. But it's a risk you take every time, whether or not they're consenting. Whether or not they're sober. Whether or not they're enthusiastic at the time. All a person has to be is mad enough at you some point to want to get revenge on you.

Not to mention, it doesn't even have to be malicious per se. Our memories really don't work that well.

https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2012/09/your-memory-is-like-the-telephone-game

It's easy enough for a memory of a consensual encounter to drift to a memory of a rape over time, because we modify a memory every time we touch it.

(incidentally, that is also true the other way)

This is why good evidence standards are important, and why your attempt to paint the victims of such things as deserving of victimhood is problematic.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

On one hand, I completely agree about the fluidity of memory. But have you ever had a sexual encounter where you ever started to wonder if you were being more rapey than you thought you had been?

If you're in the habit of only sleeping with people who you are sure are willing participants, of backing off if they ask you to, of not pursuing people in situations where consent could be considered ambiguous (and this is the overwhelming number of guys), your chances of having anything to worry about approach zero. Sure, you'll find an anecdotal example or three to the contrary. But guys who don't act shady in this way don't really have to worry about it.

It's the relatively small percentage of guys who like pushing that boundary and/or taking advantage of someone in a compromised state who have a problem. I forget the precise stats offhand, but it's a very small number of guys who are predatory in this way, and they tend to be repeat offenders. And that sucks for everyone, because it creates a culture of fear among women who fear being the victim of one of them and among men of being labeled as one of them.

But I'm saying, as someone who has so been victimized but really doesn't walk in any fear at all of being labeled a predator: act like a decent guy and nobody is going to confuse you for a predator.

[–]RapeMatters 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

But have you ever had a sexual encounter where you ever started to wonder if you were being more rapey than you thought you had been?

No. But here's the thing, there's literally nothing to compare it to.

Besides, our memories tend to be more self-serving. So it would more likely drift in the direction of the other person being "more rapey" and you being "less rapey".

But I'm saying, as someone who has so been victimized but really doesn't walk in any fear at all of being labeled an accuser: act like a decent guy and nobody is going to confuse you for a predator.

You would think that. It's not true, however - particularly if you are black. Black men make up a rather significant higher percentage of respondents than white men.

Beyond that, black out drunk is a bad part of physiology. It's perfectly plausible (and even common in some environments), for a person to be walking, talking, dancing, speaking clearly, can walk a straight line, and be black out drunk at the same time. They go have sex with someone, and have no recollection of what happened at all the next morning.

Now, what are they likely to think?

Another scenario, and an fact we've seen this in a number of college cases which have shown women who were predators accusing their victims of rape and getting the victim expelled - probably as a defensive measure. Rapists will do things like that.

Hell, personally, I was accused of statutory rape when I was a teenager with the sister of a friend of mine when she fell pregnant. It wasn't true of course, and fortunately for me, I was in another state at a party with several hundred witnesses at the time it was supposed to occur.

It's easy to get confused for a predator. You're blind if you can't see that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]RapeMatters 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

So, for the overwhelming majority of women (and let's just assume heteronormativity here) admitting to being raped even when it actually happened is deeply undesirable.

Um, probably. I haven't seen any statistics in this regard. But then again, I'm constantly seeing people who were victims of "verbal sexual assault" and stuff like that, so there's a certain desire to be the "victim" so you have a stronger voice too.

There's pulls in both directions.

In any case, it doesn't have to be a majority. One bad actor can inflict many murders, and one bad actor can inflict many claims.

How much sympathy does this give you for women dealing with the possibility of rapists?

In what way? I mean, all victims of crimes deserve justice, if that's the question.

As a rape victim myself, raped by a woman, I would like to think I have a lot of sympathy, but I'm not going to up end the justice system because of it.