I'm a trans woman who came out to myself at 32. Before then, I first saw men's rights as a vital and necessary compliment to feminism, but it doesn't seem to be that way.

Lethn · 2017-06-25T09:37:14+00:00

It's because not only do feminists actively try to shut down any discussion about men that isn't treating them as evil people and are the primary reasons they focus on bullshit issues like what you describe. Not one of them properly acknowledge issues like male suicide, domestic violence against men by women or women on male rape and even if they do it's either in passing and do absolutely nothing to stop the man haters in their groups.

Yes, you have been fed a false impression, if feminists simply stopped attacking men nobody would give a fuck. I also don't see why people act so 'concerned' about such a hateful ideology being confronted and yes, it is hateful.

The feminists that do actually talk about the issues people here talk about are either booted out of the collective or they very quickly stop identifying themselves as feminists as Cassie Jaye did when they realise just how much that label had been hijacked by these anti-capitalist man haters.

I truly ask you, when have you seen feminists on that side ever talk about anything other than 'toxic masculinity' and showing emotions? This is all they think that men have to deal with because they are that arrogant and hateful they think men can't have any real problems because of their stupid patriarchy conspiracy theory.

So long as they continue pushing this bullshit and attacking men, especially trying to target children within schools and making them hate themselves, I will fight feminism and their anti-capitalist ideology to the death.

Ultramegasaurus · 2017-06-25T09:44:36+00:00

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

nforne · 2017-06-25T11:29:42+00:00

Patriarchy Theory is a massive stumbling block in working with feminism. Most feminists insist its acceptance is a necessary starting point for discussion.

ee4m · 2017-06-25T10:43:19+00:00

We define feminists as people who advance patriarchy theory and draconian laws that target men negatively and impact women positively.

You are looking at feminism strictly in terms of whether it includes transpeople or not (edit - I see now that you mean all people).

Rabid_Pink_Princess · 2017-06-25T15:15:05+00:00

I read this before and wanted to answer but didn't have the time, I saw you receive many comments, but I want to give you my opinion anyway.

Can I ask you if you are a transgender or a transexual?

I'm a cisgender female antifeminist MRA. And yes, patriarchy never existed in the way feminists talk about it, and doesn't exist anymore in any form.

That been said, I believe the whole point is another one. MRA and Feminism aren't compatible because MRA is born as a response to the inequitues created by feminism, especially regarding laws.

MRA exist exactly to oppose many problems that feminism generated.

You are talking about people. You are telling us that "feminists are good" because you know many of them and they supported you in your hard times. So what? We are not saying that all feminists are necessarily bad people, what they did for you has nothing to do with feminism, they supported you as people, not as feminists. It doesn't prove anything about the ideology. It has nothing to do with the conclusion: feminism is good and you should accept to stand with them.

The things are unrelated, what they did for you doesn't prove anything about feminism. It's like saying: Hey, a family of nazis hosted me in their house, they offered me food and were nice, so you should understand that nazism is good.

It's not an argument!

We care about the fact that real feminism, the feminism which acts on society and laws, the doctrine created by the academics, is fucking damaging everything and it's an ideology based on bullshits.

I'm a girl, tell me why I need feminism. Tell me what's the good they can do for the world.

AnarAchronist · 2017-06-25T11:28:46+00:00

"That is, those who embrace trans people and acknowledge that men suffer under a mysoginistic patriarchal society, and accept diversity in general"

This is everything that is wrong with moderate feminists. the idea of patriarchy isnt even contested; its just seen as fact. MRAs simply cant even have a dialogue with feminists because we're forced to first accept this as the guiding premise, which we dont. We're not going to play the game where the other side has invented the rules and is often ambiguous about them at the best of times.

2017-06-25T14:20:18+00:00

*edit. I see that the difference stems from your rejection of the notion that our society is fundamentally patriarchal in nature. I disagree, but I respect your right to a different opinion. Thank you everyone who took the time to respond. I wish you all the best.

why do you assume our society is patriarchal in the first place lol

EricAllonde · 2017-06-25T11:18:01+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6j51uu/hello_everyone_looking_for_more_unbiased/djbyxl9/

bufedad · 2017-06-26T19:00:40+00:00

My question to you all is, have I been fed a false impression of you?

Oddly, you have things a bit backwards, but let's see what we can do here.

Why can't we all march together in solidarity against a system that oppresses women and men who don't want to just behave inline with traditional expectations?

Because of two aspects of feminism:

1) Feminists refuse to acknowledge or believe that actual men's issues exist. Look at the reception of The Red Pill. Not only do they refuse to watch it, but they do their best to prevent anyone else from watching it...ever. Why? Feminists will not allow men to march for their issues whether that's with feminists or without them.

2) Feminism actually moves to make men's issues worse. For instance shared parenting is a men's rights issue. Feminists, on the other hand, are dead set that men never achieve equality there. Want to know why the CDC categorizes men raped by women as "made to penetrate" instead of rape? Thank feminists. Want to know why female rapists of male victims is not counted as rape by the FBI? Thank feminists. Want to know why there are no male domestic violence shelters in the US (I think we have 1 to be fair), thank feminists. In each of these cases, to achieve equality, we must fight feminists.

This part is probably the most important thing to take from this:

Most of us used to be feminists. We saw that men had issues as well, and tried to address them within feminism. We were either driven out of feminism, or became disgusted with it's treatment of men, and so we started a movement to work on Men's Rights

2017-06-25T10:59:43+00:00

This seems like obvious troll bait.

Read the sidebar.

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