Fear & The Gervais Principle (x-post /r/theredpill)

JoshtheAspie · 2014-08-01T05:41:03+00:00

With regard to strait talk, the situation you describe may be common in soft / art based professions, or in business. However, in the technical fields, you need to communicate direct, factual information so often that it can easily become a habit to disregard anything but the direct channel of factual information.

"No, in most places, US power isn't a perfect sinusoidal 120v AC, it's spiky dirty power that can often dip even below 100v AC average. We need to accept a wider input power range, and still output a clean DC signal."

"We need at least version 2 of library A to use technique B. We need at least 2.8 if it's not packaged into the server."

Those are two examples of strait talk happening among the "looers", or addressed to middle management, or addressed to upper management. In any case, the facts are the same, the needs are the same, the engineer was hired to find, derive, create, and communicate facts and data and make hard science stuff work. "So why bother playing games? We need the version of the software we need."

Engineers or software developers are so used to communicating with a wider than usual factual communication channel, that even in less technical situations, there is a bias toward using strait talk. The bias is so strong that it can create problems.

A mid-level or entry computer scientist, for example, is more likely than a middle-manager to point out that the VP of marketing is wrong with respect to the technology statement he just made. And it's not to sabotage him, but simply to correct the error. And most of the time he's just as likely to talk this way to the middle-manager.

Most middle-managers over engineers also used to be engineers, and so are used to dealing in strait talk.

This is part of why the work culture of technical workers tends to be completely fractured from the working culture of the rest of the organization, or have rougher edges.

Meanwhile, even low-level engineers tend to look down on marketing, sales, HR, etc, as just plain stupid and inept, and lawyers, etc, as smart but manipulative scum.

As a result, you sometimes have socially unskilled people condescending to people technically higher ranked than them, but in a different company division. This rarely ends well for the lower-ranked person, due to the revenge of the highly ranked person for undermining them (however unintentional).

zephyrprime · 2014-08-01T14:50:49+00:00

Let's take this back to pickup for a minute. When guys use "cocky funny" or "break rapport" they are basically using StraightTalk as posture talk to claim higher status than the girl. In a pickup, the girl has a higher status because she is the decision maker (is he going to get in my pants/date me?). However, we know that a guy CANNOT act in a way that shows his lower status in the pick up (in real life, he may be higher status but during the seduction, he is not the decision maker). So how does he assert his higher status? By strategically mimicking how high status people talk to lower status people. High status people don't give a fuck so they just tell it like it is to lower status people. How does a wealthy person talk to a maid? A wealthy person sure as hell isn't going to go through the convolutions of powertalk when they can just tell the maid what to do (straight talk) instead.

By using straight talk to mimic a high status person, you using straight talk as a form of posture talk since you are asserting your status through conversational dialogue.

AFC talk is just supplication. It is the worst way to talk to women. With women, you want to always talk with condescension which is basically what alpha talk is.

chakravanti93 · 2014-08-01T20:19:43+00:00

When you are a multibillionaire, everyone is a loser you can straighttalk.

Nitzi · 2014-08-01T21:20:37+00:00

Nobody speaks to a famous person or CEO with straighttalk unless that person is above.

You should read this interesting post: http://www.reddit.com/r/AlreadyRed/comments/208cmx/girls_and_bosses/

With the gervais principle you found out why this is such a good advice.

emptyform · 2014-08-01T00:41:11+00:00

At one of my first jobs, I was temping and thought I was only going to be a temp at this company, because I was an artist trying to pay my bills and it was in a field I was greatly uninterested in. My assignment had me working with the VP of Sales and occasionally interacting with the CEO. While I maintained a baseline professionalism, I generally didn't give a fuck what they thought of me, and as an artist, I sort of looked down on them for being so corporate (I laugh at this attitude now, but that's another post).

I had great rapport with both of these men for months despite being 30+ years their junior. We cracked jokes, we shot the shit, they would open up about some of their actual emotions & strategy with clients. But then I got hired on full-time in a different department, and suddenly my attitude changed--I had something to lose. TRP/GP wasn't around back then, but I can now see that I started powertalking a lot more, which combined with some other ways my confidence got knocked around (as it does when you're young in your career), ended up demonstrating much lower value to them than when I was a straighttalker. Suddenly I was guarded, distant and reserved, not at all like the young kid they had admired for his confidence, honesty and It factor.

Simultaneously, I began straighttalking with the relative equals in my company (out of a naive belief we could have solidarity) instead of powertalking or posturetalking, and it ended up backfiring on me because they either lost respect, disliked my real opinions on things, or felt me demonstrating a lower value than when I power- or posturetalked to them.

So yes, I think your hypothesis has a lot of merit, but I would definitely add that you want to keep those lower or your equals at a powertalking distance. The caveat is that it only helps you if they think you're straighttalking, or you throw them little nuggets of straighttalk about shit you don't care about (selective honesty, per the 48).

In conjunction, Rao also talks about in one of his ebooks four basic interaction attitudes that are also good to keep in mind in status signaling. Most conversations are two parties each having one of the following:

Condescension: I am higher than you and for you
Supplication: I am lower than you and for you
Contempt: I am higher than you and against you
Insolence: I am lower than you and against you

Insolence is always going to be a dangerous attitude to display, because it subconsciously tells the person that you're an enemy that's weaker than them. Contempt is the next worst because you're creating an enemy out of someone who will likely think you're arrogant in your own status assessment. Supplication should be used all the time to your direct superiors, and avoided with everyone else as much as possible. You want to try to conduct yourself in a manner that is the epitome of classy condescension. The art of it is that the person must not consciously think you're being condescending (or else they turn contemptuous or insolent), but if they feel your polite condescension, they will raise your status in their mind. I would say this is what it means to handle yourself with dignity and class.

puaSenator · 2014-08-08T20:56:42+00:00

What's interesting is that other powerful men are not used to being engaged in straighttalk from an equal. If you are straight up with another powerful man, and clearly not a worker or peon, this causes a cognitive dissonance in the leader. Nobody speaks to a famous person or CEO with straighttalk unless that person is above.

One of the traits that I can tell bother's my friends, or at least makes them confused, is how I straight talk to anyone of authority that has no direct connection to me. I think this roots from growing up in an affluent area where CEO's, politicians, and the occasional celebrity weren't unicorns.

I've had several comments before when friends are around, for instance, a few years ago comes to mind when I was at a family member's party and a former executive of a huge multinational was there (he's older and oldschool as hell -- really down to earth). I ended up bullshitting with him telling him how I need to borrow his watch to help trick the ladies into not realizing I'm a poor student. When he refused, I gave him shit. My friends were taken back, trying to ask "how could you just say that to him? You know he's a former exec for X?" As if there is a special way you are supposed to behave around these people.

Or more recently when I saw a celebrity walking down the street on his way to a popular local small bar/club and I run up and start BSing with him and asking about work out routines (he's in great shape). We talked a little, and once we got to the line he left and went in. As we waited in line with the reset of the commoners the two girls I was with insisted that I just embarrassed myself, I clearly annoyed him, and how much he doesn't like me after just randomly running up to him and pestering a celebrity. Any ways, later in the night he pops out of the annoyingly hidden VIP section and catches me at the bar and continues chatting me up about how much he hates sports for being pointless but can't stop watching it. Then he pays for my entire order and vanishes into the night.

It's just like how we say don't put the pussy on the pedestal, because when they are above you, they can only look down at you. It's the same with anyone of importance. When you come to them behaving like an inferior, they will treat you like one. If you want to be treated as an equal, treat them as an equal.

Title	Fear & The Gervais Principle (x-post /r/theredpill)
Author	deepthrill
Upvotes	20
Comments	17
Date	July 31, 2014 8:57 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/AlreadyRed
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/AlreadyRed/comments/2c9x0x/fear_the_gervais_principle_xpost_rtheredpill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/AlreadyRed/fear-the-gervais-principle-x-post-rtheredpill.1124247 https://theredarchive.com/post/1124247

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