Deconstructing the Red Pill dogma.

eggwig · 2014-10-09T02:47:06+00:00

Hi. I really appreciate seeing these questions. Here are some of my opinions:

Male disposability. Ouch. It hurt me to even see these two words put together. Now, since I'm from America, I was probably just raised to see all of this differently. But I still think it's safe to say that feminism has been one of the causes of the men-to-women ratio of our military slowly becoming more even. In fact, the year after my father graduated from the Air Force Academy in the 70s was the first year when women were admitted to that school. Speaking of my father, I know as a citizen and as a person with military family members that men are not disposable. In fact, my somewhat liberal opinion is that NO PERSON is disposable. I don't think the average person, meaning the people who have to fight the wars rather than the people who start them, thinks of other fighters as being disposable. Even my father, who joined the Air Force just before the Vietnam war ended and was fully expecting to be drafted anyway, and has said many times that he would personally be willing to sacrifice himself if the need arose, always reminds me that NO ONE should EVER, EVER be obligated to sacrifice him or herself. It must be an individual's choice. As we move forward in the future, I hope all governments and nations can come to realize this.
Divorce. The gold-digging ex-wife is a stereotype perpetuated by the fact that most husbands still earn much more money than their wives do, which is something else feminism can help put to a stop. The logic behind it is the woman has usually made choices (such as quitting a job or working less) to devote more of her time to the marriage/children; in effect she had made choices damaging her financial independence for the sake of her husband, and then at the divorce is asking for recompense. If you are worried about losing money in a divorce, there are pre-nuptial agreements (prenups) to prevent that from happening. Or, even better, don't get married to a person you do not trust entirely.
Sleeping around. Where I'm from, men get bragging rights for having slept around whereas women with lots of sexual experience are usually labeled sluts. In fact, being an inhabitant of the conservative Midwest, it's much more common for women to encourage each other to "wait" for marriage than for men. Whatever you are hearing about every women your age getting laid every night is simply untrue. Also, the female sexual prime (age 30ish) happens later than the male sexual prime (20ish). I've heard female libido peaks around age 30-35, so assuming you wish to date women your age, you're just in time for the fun. Also, I think you should question why you find this to be "unjust toward [your]self." If the love of your life has not met you yet, how can you blame her for having a different boyfriend now? Would you expect the girl you meet 5 years from now to resent you for the girlfriend you sleep with next year? That doesn't make any sense. Besides, people who have had sex before almost always make better, less awkward lovers than those who haven't. If you start a relationship with a woman who already has a good idea of how to please you, rejoice! You're lucky!
Gold-digging. Eh... I don't know what I can say about this, since I like to think I am one of those Westerners who can have a healthy and mutually productive relationship. Since I am not familiar with the actual reality of your social surroundings, I don't know how to help, sorry.

littlelibertine · 2014-10-09T20:50:11+00:00

Disclaimer: 27/f, feminist, American, works full-time, long-term relationship with a man leading to marriage.

Regarding male "disposability": this is something that I've seen come up a lot recently and I'm honestly very concerned about. While we've seen a lot of movement for women towards accepting themselves and breaking out of gender roles, there hasn't been any equivalent accepting of men doing the same. In order to achieve the equality and justice we need, we truly need to get on providing the acceptance of men that want to step out of the traditional gender roles that currently make manymen feel like their only purpose is to work and provide for a woman and children or die in a war. Men have just as much right to feel respected, and worthy, and empowered as women.

One thing that most or all feminists have in common is that we completely support the dismantling and abolishment of selective service. Female politicians especially tend to be against war.

Divorce. I'm going to go ahead and tell you, yeah, this isn't fair, but it's becoming moreso. A lot of divorce laws and current practices in divorce court are based on laws and practices put into place in order to protect women who couldn't work or, if working, could not approximate the kind of income needed to support herself and her children if she was granted custody. that's something that absolutely needs to be changed. I have heard, now, of women having to pay alimony to husbands whose income potential is lower. Honestly, now that women are working and making their own money, any alimony/child support should be entirely concerned with balancing the children's standard of living.

Sleeping around. This is a tricky one for guys with a lot less experience than prospective female partners because you feel like women don't want you for who you are and who you want to be -- an attractive partner, a sexually viable man, instead of a potential provider for her and her future children. That's understandable but is unfortunately perpetuated by this RP idea that, while only men are supposed to "spin plates" until they settle down, women can't do the same. I don't see a problem. People want to have kind of crazy sex with people they'd NEVER settle down with in their younger years, but I don't know a single person (women included) who's looking to settle down with someone more stable that they don't find personally and sexually attractive, too. What it comes down to is this: pick a partner you love and trust. I slept with a ton of people in college and right out, and I still have crazy awesome sex with my partner, but he is 100% more sexually attractive to me BECAUSE he is the kind of guy I'd spend the rest of my life with. People change over the course of their lives -- men and women alike. What TRP call "spinning plates" for men is "riding the cock carousel" for women. Why don't they understand that they're talking about exactly the same thing?

Gold digging. Do women make as much money as men where you live? Can they support themselves, or are they dependent upon their fathers, boyfriends or husbands for support? If they're dependent, I'm not surprised they're trying to trade up. The best way to make sure women won't try to gold-dig their way to the top of the food chain is to a) make sure they have access to employment that pays as well as men's, and b) make sure you, yourself, don't date shallow people.

Gunlord500 · 2014-10-08T21:36:06+00:00

Welcome, friend. Glad to see another brother moving away from "Red Pill" dogma and silliness. To respond to your points:

Male Disposability: Remember that A: Mostly male politicians start these wars, and B: in modern warfare being female isn't a sure way not to get killed. Thanks to mass bombing and things like that, it's not as "safe" to be a woman as it used to be.

That said, anyone who really wants to end male disposability would do well to work towards a more peaceful world, which is exactly what RPers don't want.

Divorce: Yeah, that sucks, but the solution to that is to not get married. I think a lot of our divorce and alimony laws are archaic holdbacks to a bygone era that will change as time goes on, but until it does, there's nothing wrong with not getting married. Where TRP jumps off the rails is when they claim it's a "feminist conspiracy" as opposed to the slow rate of social change.

Sleeping Around: it's not something I care about myself, but I can understand if some guys do. My advice? If sexual experience is important, hire an escort. I'm not saying this to be flippant, I really mean it--if you haven't had much sex, as you say you haven't, just getting it out of the way will teach you it's not such a big deal, one way or the other, so you won't feel as angry towards women who have a lot of it.

Gold-Digging: Again, TRP's right when they say it sucks, they're wrong when they start talking about hypergamy as some previously unknown evil that controls the world via the "feminine imperative." Women like rich guys? Gee, no fucking shit, feminism sure obscured that earth-shattering truth. Anyways, if the local girls are too materialistic, I advise working to get some money yourself--it'll be easier, ironically enough, to find women who don't care as much about money when you've got it. Finding a good career is advisable for reasons beyond getting chicks, because with more money you'll have a lot more freedom, like being able to travel or buy cool stuff that you like, allowing you to meet different girls. It's also a lot of hard work, though. You could also try to work on your physical appearance rather than your career, "Hypergamy" applies to looks as well as wealth, after all, so a ripped but poor guy might be able to do as well as an average looking but wealthy guy. This also has the benefit of bettering your health, too.

Good luck on your journey, brother.

p_iynx · 2014-10-09T01:12:24+00:00

Hi friend! I'm going to try to hit some alternative points.

Male disposability: the flip side is being seen as so weak or incompetent that you aren't even allowed to fight if you want to. The two major pushes for women being on the front lines have been BY WOMEN and were rejected by male politicians. (Just google, you will see that the vast majority of pushes for women in the army have been by women's rights groups and by female politicians.) What we can't ignore is that most women don't have the physical capacity to be on the front lines. It's not a matter of disposability, but rather physical suitability. Some women are suitable and others aren't. Should all women be barred because the majority aren't as strong as men? Absolutely not. But that's a huge block that is in the way of women being accepted on the front lines of war. Women are seen and thought of as weaker, not necessarily more precious. As for the draft, I believe it's awful and shouldn't exist anyway. If both sexes were in the draft, who would work at home? During wars, women have historically taken over stereotypically male jobs to make up for the lack of men at home. Additionally, they were the ones home to raise children. We would need to figure out how to address those issues (retaining staff for critical infrastructure and having parents) before we could enlist everyone in the draft.

Divorce and child custody: please look at actual statistics from trustworthy sources. I'm on mobile right now, but if you look, child custody is almost 50/50 WHEN the dad chooses to fight for primary custody. Most don't. Also remember that you're not going to hear about all the amicable divorces; you are only going to hear about the horror stories. And because of your sources of information, you're only going to hear the man's side. Women have been screwed in divorce. Additionally, a lot of these people have no understanding of how courts decide to give alimony. If you think about it, it's not fair for a red pill man to expect his wife to stay home, sacrificing all her best career-growth years, then they get divorced because she's sick of his abuse and manipulation and stuck working as a grocery clerk part-time because she has no relevant experience for the last 15 years. Get a reasonable pre-nup, and understand what is at stake if you ask her to stop working.

TurnPunchKick · 2014-10-08T22:57:49+00:00

Remember that your still winning. Your a man. Men fight in wars. Yes we do and we are celebrated as heros for shooting people in other counties. We work shitty jobs. Yes we do. Get a better education or find a side hustle you don`t have to be trapped by a shitty job.

Yes divore sucks. Remember that the social pressure to stay married is gone so more people will get divorced more often. Luckily your smart enough to know this and can just not marry anybody and try not to get anybody pregnant.

And even with some of the disadvantages that the modern times have bought us men are still winning. Ok so now women can sleep around. Men have been doing this shit forever. The playing field is now a little more level but look on the bright side more women having more sex means you are more likely to get some.

Your English was pretty good. If you hadn`t said anything I might not have noticed

Kenny__Loggins · 2014-10-20T03:05:10+00:00

1, 2, and 4 are all problems that feminism seeks to eradicate as well. And 3, that's just a personal issue you bed to get over. Just because you're jealous doesn't mean anyone else is in the wrong.

2014-10-10T17:28:30+00:00

Male disposability: Historically, political offices were only open to men so, like Gunlord said, it was mostly male politicians starting wars and male politicians also didn't allow women to fight in wars. In fact, women weren't allowed to fight in the front lines, until recently. I'm sure that women would've gone to war if it was allowed, because even during the Civil War and World Wars, some women worked as spies or dressed up as men and snuck into the army. As a woman a western country, I find it unfair that only males have to fill out a draft card when they turn 18, in my country.

Divorce: There's the option of a prenup. In some cases, women choose to be homemakers while their husbands work and provide all the family income, so of course your wife would get alimony because if you're the one making all the money and house(s) and car(s) are under your name, then she'd need the money to at least travel back to her parents' house or get her own place. Another circumstance is that sometimes the husband chooses to pack up his stuff, move out, and abandon the wife and kids, so, because she now has to raise the kids on her own and has full custody of them, due to his choices, he has to pay child support because he should take some responsibility in taking care of his kids, even if it's just sending a check every month.

Sleeping around: I'd take into account the context of their experience as well. What if they did sleep with 10 people, but were in exclusive relationships with all those people and were mutually in love with all of them? Maybe that's just a normal part of relationships for them. I think it's ok to have that standard of not wanting to date someone who has a lot more experience than you, as long as you still respect them as people and don't see them as lower than you or other people who have less experience. There are some people who won't have sex unless their married to that person, so it would make things much easier if they dated someone with the same values, and someone who has those values likely wouldn't have much sexual experience, as well.

Gold digging: The RP consensus seems to be that women should put their bf/husband and marriage and kids first and that they should cater to their husband's needs, be docile, and admire him, whereas they believe men should provide and protect for their gf/wife and kids. The RP idea places the financial burden on the man. I prefer an egalitarian relationship, because I think the onus of providing and protecting should be on both parties, as well as the onus of putting your partner's needs first and making them feel respected and admired. Having equal power and authority, means that you also take the responsibilities and make the sacrifices that come with those things.

bunker_man · 2014-11-14T01:06:55+00:00

1: Arguing about who had life worse in 1923 doesn't change what is going on now. People in GENERAL were considered semi-disposable in the past. In part since mortality of children was so high that death was considered just an omnipresent reality of life. Don't get embroiled in an us vs them mentality. Before worrying about who is better treated in any area in general, first focus on treating everyone well in general.

2: While terrible divorces do exist, it is helpful to note that less than half of first marriages end in divorce, and of those, if you end on good terms they probably won't try to fleece you. The problem is that the red pill makes it more likely to NOT end on good terms since you make everything into an open battle and power struggle. If you want to ensure that its not going to be spiteful you have to actually be good friends as well, and people who even if they accept its better to move away wouldn't be spiteful over it.

3: If you have a preference for people who haven't, since they're closer to what you have done that's not really a problem. Those people do exist. The idea that everyone female sleeps around in ways guys don't or can't is a red pill myth anyways. Whether you'd want someone more similar to yourself or not is one thing, but you should make sure to understand that its in no way something that was done to spite you or in any way relative to trying to exploit someone later on anyways. Its not like they openly don't care about who they want to end up with. Otherwise they likely wouldn't want to end up with them.

There are exceptions, but the point is to learn to distinguish. Not try to exploit people to come out ahead.

Title	Deconstructing the Red Pill dogma.
Author	recovering_red_pill
Upvotes	16
Comments	29
Date	October 8, 2014 7:21 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/2ioslo/deconstructing_the_red_pill_dogma/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/deconstructing-the-red-pill-dogma.300541 https://theredarchive.com/post/300541

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