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Masculinity so toxic

redveinlover

January 17, 2019

520 upvotes

/r/MGTOW

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Post Information

Title	Masculinity so toxic
Author	redveinlover
Upvotes	520
Comments	45
Date	January 17, 2019 8:14 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/agvmtg/masculinity_so_toxic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/masculinity-so-toxic.422381 https://theredarchive.com/post/422381

Comments

[–]low_burning46 points47 points48 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WeylandPunani 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

[+]exmoproud-6 points-5 points-4 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

There isn't enough data because from what I was last aware single male parents only make up 14% of single parent homes which is similar to the number you provided.

I think the point is missed here. People are assuming that because the child is brought up by the mother it's her fault solely for the poor behavior. Isn't it still partially the fathers (toxic masculity) fault for leaving?

Women make less than men, are pressured to not use contraception, have children, raise them the best they can when they themselves were often raised in homes where conditional standards are taught. Resentment, in any home causes crime rates to increase when that child is of the age where they will commit those crimes.

Its true that we are somewhat responsible for our own actions. But when you live in a society ruled by toxic masculinity AND toxic femininity its difficult to stop the cycle of poverty and crime. That's why our overall crime rate is going down in the USA. Women have more choices now when it comes to a career, abortion, etc. It still, certainly is not enough.

The commercial seems to hit on the sensitive feelings of uneducated/uninformed men specifically. The commercial never says toxic femininity doesn't exist or that women are perfect. In fact, women, are sometimes the largest proponents of the Patriarchy, usually unknowingly but non-the-less. Women in uneducated cultures (yes, even in parts of America) tend to pressure other women to have more children and forgo education. What is a single mothers greatest accomplishment? Usually her children since she worked two or three shitty jobs that weren't rewarding. Who is on magazines telling women to lose weight/be beautiful (to unrealistic standards)??? Women. And certainly we objectify men from time to time but not nearly as much as women in America.

In a morbid example women in countries where female circumcision is the norm are also the largest proponents of it. They encourage the girls to be circumcised and hold them down during the ceremony. This is all because education is essentially nonexistent for these women. And the men like it that way.

I'm a woman that was raised in mormonism where sexism exists towards ALL members of ALL ages. I am not blind or viewing all articles, commercials, etc as black and white as many people seem to be doing with this commercial. It was hard to learn new terms like Benevolent Sexism and get Woke but I did it! So can men. I'm humble enough to admit my mistakes and everyone complaining about this commercial and using unrelated data to dismantle it needs to reavaluate their debate tactics.

Its like when we say "the future is female" we aren't saying men won't exist or be there, we're saying 50% of positions in all industries will also have women present.

Gillette points out the OVERT ways that society hurts women and men via toxic masculinity. If we could curb the sexual assault and toxic masculinity in this country, certainly the rest would follow. Continue supporting women's rights and education too!

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

[–]WeylandPunani 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mex_Heroin1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I read this "Ted Talk" and debated way too long with myself if I should jump in and respond.

There isn't enough data because from what I was last aware single male parents only make up 14% of single parent homes which is similar to the number you provided.

I think the point is missed here. People are assuming that because the child is brought up by the mother it's her fault solely for the poor behavior. Isn't it still partially the fathers (toxic masculity) fault for leaving?

Assumption. Why did the man leave? Something like over 80% of divorces are instigated by the woman. Is it because he's the asshole or she is? No data to base that statement on.

Also, define * *toxic** masculinity.

Women make less than men...

Nope, debunked. They make equal pay for equal work in the same job position. In Australia a recent study found women are paid more than a man in the same position in certain jobs.

...are pressured to not use contraception...

Their body, their choice. Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Are you asserting women can't "Just Say No"?

...have children...

That's biology.

...raise them the best they can when they themselves were often raised in homes where conditional standards are taught.

All standards are conditional to the society you're in. For example the Air Force has different standards than the Marines. Germany has different standards than Mexico.

Resentment, in any home causes crime rates to increase when that child is of the age where they will commit those crimes.

Resentment causes crime? Wow, who knew? Certainly not all the people who actually study crime and its causes.

Its true that we are somewhat responsible for our own actions.

No, we are 100% responsible for our own actions.

But when you live in a society ruled by toxic masculinity AND toxic femininity its difficult to stop the cycle of poverty and crime. That's why our overall crime rate is going down in the USA. Women have more choices now when it comes to a career, abortion, etc. It still, certainly is not enough.

There you go throwing out the undefined term "toxic masculinity" again.

And, you come up a new undefined term of "toxic femininity". A female can't be toxic for being too female, unless you think being female is in and of itself toxic. I think you meant "toxic feminism". Or not. Many MGTOW do think female nature is toxic.

You also come up with a new cause of crime: toxic masculinity AND toxic femininity (feminism?)

The commercial seems to hit on the sensitive feelings of uneducated/uninformed men specifically.

That's another blatant assertion without any supporting facts, assuming the education level (and gender) of the people who dislike it.

Also, if it was just a single commercial then it wouldn't raise the ire that it has. It's just another in a long line from many sources insinuating men are toxic just because they are men.

The commercial never says toxic femininity doesn't exist or that women are perfect.

No it doesn't. However, show me a single commercial, TV show, movie, or news program from a major network, that does say toxic femininity (feminism?) exists. If you can find one I can find several dozens that show men as dumb, incompetent, sexist, and assholes.

In fact, women, are sometimes the largest proponents of the Patriarchy, usually unknowingly but non-the-less. Women in uneducated cultures (yes, even in parts of America) tend to pressure other women to have more children and forgo education. What is a single mothers greatest accomplishment? Usually her children since she worked two or three shitty jobs that weren't rewarding. Who is on magazines telling women to lose weight/be beautiful (to unrealistic standards)??? Women. And certainly we objectify men from time to time but not nearly as much as women in America.

And men don't work shitty unrewarding jobs trying to support a family? How many women do you see working in the coal mines, sewer plants, garbage collection, railroad, road construction (discounting flagging traffic), logging, or other such jobs? Very damn few.

You see so many less single fathers because the courts award custody to the woman and then force the man to give her money that is supposedly for the children but in reality she can spend on anything she wants--in a divorce which she instigated. Let's not even discuss in how many of those cases the woman refuses to allow the man to even see his children--in violation of the court ordered custody agreement.

In a morbid example women in countries where female circumcision is the norm are also the largest proponents of it. They encourage the girls to be circumcised and hold them down during the ceremony. This is all because education is essentially nonexistent for these women. And the men like it that way.

Female circumcision is a horrible practice and the men and *women who practice and perpetuate it should be flogged.*

I'm a woman that was raised in mormonism where sexism exists towards ALL members of ALL ages. I am not blind or viewing all articles, commercials, etc as black and white as many people seem to be doing with this commercial. It was hard to learn new terms like Benevolent Sexism and get Woke but I did it! So can men. I'm humble enough to admit my mistakes and everyone complaining about this commercial and using unrelated data to dismantle it needs to reavaluate their debate tactics.

Speaking about reevaluating debate tactics, pot, meet kettle.

Its like when we say "the future is female" we aren't saying men won't exist or be there, we're saying 50% of positions in all industries will also have women present.

Pull the other one.

A recent study from the Technical University of Munich shows that women are less likely to apply for jobs that include words like "assertive", "independent", "aggressive" and "analytical," opting instead for job postings that use words like "dedicated", "responsible", "conscientious" and "sociable." Men, on the other hand, were happy to apply for jobs in both categories.

Women don't want to do certain types of jobs. Then they whine because women are underrepresented in those jobs.

Gillette points out the OVERT ways that society hurts women and men via toxic masculinity. If we could curb the sexual assault and toxic masculinity in this country, certainly the rest would follow. Continue supporting women's rights and education too!

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

Really wished I hadn't. It was full of blatant assertions, assumptions, and inaccuracies.

[–]exmoproud1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's true that women initiate more divorces, 70% in fact. This is because men are more likely to stay in marriage situations even if they are terrible. Many single mothers are never married and this data does not apply to non marriage relationships.

Women do make less than men. This has NOT been debunked. Waitressing and porn, in America are the only jobs where women are paid more. Not only that but women that have children earn 4% less than their male counter parts regardless of marriage. Male Asians are the only group that make more than white men. Certainly your point about job tiers is relevant. That being said a women's upbringing tends to influence the jobs she will take. This is, again, a cultural issue. I don't this female CEO'S are making 82% of what men make. But occasionally that does happen. Or black men for example making less for the same work. That gap is certainly closing though.

Toxic Masculinity was coming by the OG MGTOW - Mythopoetic Men's Movement. Boys were overlooked as their mothers continued to reap benefits from welfare in fatherless homes. The issue here is that children are not central to this thought process. If you read freakonomics you will see that their IS a high correlation to resented children committing crimes. This occurs when we focus far to much on children who are REJECTED by their mothers and become obsessed with violence, objectifying women, lusy, which seems ironic and turns into mysoginism.

This I think is the fault of first our culture in America and second toxic masculity rather than HEALTHY masculinity. What is the opposite of masculinity? Femininity, not feminism. And yes, I truly believe as an advocate for human rights that toxic femininity is real. I mentioned it as far as magazines go. Sexualising teens girls, pushing girls to have children and not educate themselves. And just as the commercial says "boys will be boys" is the epitomy of "toxic masculinity".

As far as jobs go, certainly there are those, even that are white, that cannot get away ftom the cycle of poverty so they advocate to go into a trade or job that is not fulfilling. However, I do believe people of color and women have less accessibility to jobs and education then MOST white men.

Certainly some of what I said was opinion but the fact is that men's advocacy groups want to curb toxic masculinity so boys can grow to their full potential and interact in healthy ways in society. I think this is of course a great thing because helping boys belief they can do anything rather than only have one way of life is what MGTOW is all about.

[–]Mex_Heroin-1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women do make less than men. This has NOT been debunked. Waitressing and porn, in America are the only jobs where women are paid more. Not only that but women that have children earn 4% less than their male counter parts regardless of marriage.

Overall, women make less than men mostly due to job choice. Men and women tend to gravitate toward different careers. The most popular choices for men tend to pay higher than the most popular choices for women. Then there's family responsibilities. Women's pay growth stops out-pacing men's pay growth at around age 30, which is when college-educated women start having children. Men's wages grow for a longer period of time and achieve higher levels than women, on average. That's all true, however, all other things being equal: education, seniority, job position, amount of work performed, women receive the same pay as men. So yes, a woman making less than a man for equal work in the same job position has been debunked. For it to be otherwise is against Federal Law.

Next paragraph. Correlation does not imply causation. Steven Levitt in Freakonomics stated he wasn't saying his findings showed underlying causes, but it was a different way of looking at things. He found a correlation between a rise in abortion and lower crime rates that started in the 90's. There is also high correlation between the rise in States enacting concealed weapon carry (CCW) laws and the lowering crime rate in the same time period. Correlation does not imply causation. Say it again, correlation does not imply causation. Personally I think the CCW laws had a greater effect than abortion, but I can't prove that, only show a very high correlation.

Toxic Masculinity was coming by the OG MGTOW....

This sentence does not parse.

However, I do believe people of color and women have less accessibility to jobs and education then MOST white men.

Look at current college enrollment and get back to me on that one.

And just as the commercial says "boys will be boys" is the epitomy of "toxic masculinity".

Bullying, violence, sexual harassment isn't cool doesn't matter which sex it comes from. But, make a movie about a bunch of high school girls doing it (let's name it Mean Girls) and it will be a hit, guaranteed.

Boys playing rough with each other and doing "boy" things isn't toxic.

It's a double standard many are blind to due to their bias, but let's blame it on men.

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