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Stop using Manchild!

mgtow4ever · 2015-04-06T05:37:03+00:00

So sick of this Verbiage, why do some choose to use this degrading word to define our selves. Why do some choose to use nomenclature of "Tradcons"...

mgtow4ever

April 6, 2015

9 upvotes

/r/MGTOW

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Post Information

Title	Stop using Manchild!
Author	mgtow4ever
Upvotes	9
Comments	19
Date	April 6, 2015 5:37 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/31lm23/stop_using_manchild/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/stop-using-manchild.628610 https://theredarchive.com/post/628610

Comments

[–]wadewilsonofcourse 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]pirate67286 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Riktrat 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Nemo_the_Nihilist3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Foxhunterlives2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]OriginalGravy5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Exactly this. Agree-and-amplify is one of the better ways of dealing with shaming language. When someone tries to shame you by calling you a child, their primary goal is to make you feel bad. I mean, the sentence isn't literally true, so there has to be some other goal. Arguing against such an accusation gives it validity, and it means they have succeeded at riling you up.

Proudly stating that yes, I am a child, conveys the implication that your way of living life is proper. The hidden meaning behind their usage of the word "child" is this: you aren't accumulating as much responsibility as them, you aren't suffering as much as you should. Your response throws it right back at them: "why the hell should I?"

The people who can look past the words will see this. They know that the label of "adult" is primarily used to refer to self-sacrifice. Anyone who cannot see this is not worth your time. If they seriously think your admission of being a child is an admission of guilt, an admission of being a horrible person... then their mind is broken. They are thinking in labels, not in meaning.

Enjoy your self, do what suits you best but please don't use words that simply degrade you as a human being.

This is a limiting belief, the idea that words alone can degrade you. Reality is perfectly wordless. Actions and states of mind just are, regardless of the sounds used to describe them. Words will only degrade you if they actually cause a loss of self-respect, an actual effect in reality beyond sound waves. Typically, this will only happen if you expect to lose self-respect. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I consider myself an Adult, a responsible, highly respect, hard working, educated

Says the man who advocates against degrading yourself. All I'm hearing is "I am a resource, doing my duty of contributing to society". You know what the best two words for a man to describe himself are? Intelligent, and happy. It means his life is full of value and that he is capable of protecting and achieving his values. Such a man will work hard when it is in his interest, but he will not work hard when it is against his interest. Describing yourself primarily as hard-working and responsible means you are emphasizing your qualities as a resource who exists for the benefit of others. The fact that such words feel empowering to you, not degrading, should tell you all that you need to know: words generally have the effect on you that you expect them to have, nothing more.

[–]drkstrs1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Says the man who advocates against degrading yourself. All I'm hearing is "I am a resource, doing my duty of contributing to society".

You know what the best two words for a man to describe himself are? Intelligent, and happy. It means his life is full of value and that he is capable of protecting and achieving his values.Such a man will work hard when it is in his interest, but he will not work hard when it is against his interest. Describing yourself primarily as hard-working and responsible means you are emphasizing your qualities as a resource who exists for the benefit of others. The fact that such words feel empowering to you, not degrading, should tell you all that you need to know: words generally have the effect on you that you expect them to have, nothing more.

I always chuckle at this "responsible hardworking" claim. It's almost always used to shame others or justify exploiting them. My greatest moments have been from blowing off responsibilities chosen by others as measures of value. Taking time to travel, or learn things that interest me with no apparent external value. These are things that can never be taken from me, because I did them entirely of my own volition, and the opinions of others don't mean a damn thing. This is the source of my real strength, the fact that I can create value in my own life completely outside an external value system. To quote Jim Morrison:

"I'm interested in anything about revolt, disorder, chaos, especially activity that appears to have no meaning. It seems to me to be the road toward freedom"

To me activity that 'appears to have no meaning" means I get to create my own. I have climbed 6000 meter peaks and spent months doing nothing but reading and thinking. I have also made money but its only a facilitator to me and never been the point. The pursuit of it has seldom if ever increased my sense of personal happiness and can easily lead to vainglory and meaningless consumption. And if I can avoid doing it and still get the results I want I will.

[–]mgtow4ever-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Exactly this. Agree-and-amplify is one of the better ways of dealing with shaming language. When someone tries to shame you by calling you a child, their primary goal is to make you feel bad. I mean, the sentence isn't literally true, so there has to be some other goal. Arguing against such an accusation gives it validity, and it means they have succeeded at riling you up.

I don't care about what you call your self. Unfortunately I don't nor any of you live in alternative universe and sadly other peoples perception of you will matter. Your ability to socially and politically navigate the real world solely depends on other people. How do you think you would fair if some one labeled you as "Rapist", "Pedophile", "Child abuser" and or "Mysoginist" and if these labels would somehow make around to your social circle, how do think you would fair in relationships and employment?

Proudly stating that yes, I am a child, conveys the implication that your way of living life is proper. The hidden meaning behind their usage of the word "child" is this: you aren't accumulating as much responsibility as them, you aren't suffering as much as you should. Your response throws it right back at them: "why the hell should I?" The people who can look past the words will see this. They know that the label of "adult" is primarily used to refer to self-sacrifice. Anyone who cannot see this is not worth your time. If they seriously think your admission of being a child is an admission of guilt, an admission of being a horrible person... then their mind is broken. They are thinking in labels, not in meaning.

Being an adult has nothing to to with Sacrifice. On this point you have a very limited understanding. Being adult means that you have survived passed childhood and grown in wisdom, experience and knowledge. Being a child and acting as one is closer related to being less wiser, less experienced, less knowledgeable, and less capable. I have already learned and passed childhood its the very reason why I am MGTOW.

This is a limiting belief, the idea that words alone can degrade you. Reality is perfectly wordless. Actions and states of mind just are, regardless of the sounds used to describe them. Words will only degrade you if they actually cause a loss of self-respect, an actual effect in reality beyond sound waves. Typically, this will only happen if you expect to lose self-respect. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yes its degrading. I had to slog through shit and garbage in my young life as a child and to be seen to be equated to a sewage worker for the rest of my life is not something I take lightly. Yes its degrading just like any charged verbiage. How do you think you would take it if your name was replaced with Idiot, Stupid, Dimwit, and see if you will not think that its degrading.

Says the man who advocates against degrading yourself. All I'm hearing is "I am a resource, doing my duty of contributing to society". You know what the best two words for a man to describe himself are? Intelligent, and happy. It means his life is full of value and that he is capable of protecting and achieving his values. Such a man will work hard when it is in his interest, but he will not work hard when it is against his interest. Describing yourself primarily as hard-working and responsible means you are emphasizing your qualities as a resource who exists for the benefit of others. The fact that such words feel empowering to you, not degrading, should tell you all that you need to know: words generally have the effect on you that you expect them to have, nothing more.

How do you suppose I am degrading myself? You think you see me as some utility to society? Guess what so are you, all of you, some more then others. I am not ashamed of being well educated and working hard and I am not ashamed of earning money that hire very good accountants that allow me to use every tax loophole under the sun to skirt taxes as much as possible. I rather be part of the 2% then the 98%.

This monk ideology of doing the least possible is somehow a fantastic idea is beyond me.

I guess when you are born with nothing and see and experience more human misery in your first ten years of your life then most see and experience in their entire life span it changes your perspective drastically. When I see some one carrying a big stick my first reaction is not to run away from it but rather to find a bigger stick for myself. From what I have learned so far is that its far easier to be the one dishing out the beatings then the one who receives them.

A Stupid Man doesn't learn from his own mistakes. A Smart Man does learn from his own mistakes. A Genius Man learns from others mistakes.

FYI You are guilty your self of Trying to shame me with language.

[–]OriginalGravy1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Your ability to socially and politically navigate the real world solely depends on other people.

This viewpoint has always been half wrong and in the modern era, is very, very wrong. It's old-fashioned. Yes, it used to be the case that your reputation determined your ability to support yourself. The work I do today is almost completely anonymous. My income is much, much more dependent on what I actually do than what people think of me.

The problem with your perspective is that you are focusing too much on other people. Human society is but a small part of the real world. Reality is and has always been the greatest enemy. Reality is going to murder you way before you reach a trillion years of age. Having a big stick isn't going to stop that. Being respected won't help you. What you need is solely intelligence, the ability to bend reality to your will. I get where you are coming from, but it is very outdated. We live in a world where you can make money anonymously, you don't need to cultivate a network of people who respect you. Hell in some ways we don't even need other people anymore to beat reality. A single human mind could invent a superintelligent AI almost exclusively by their own effort.

The type of viewpoint you are proposing has always ignored the ultimate, biggest stick in the room: the non-human part of reality. Other people are the least of your concern. They're not the ones that will murder you when you reach triple digits in age, they're not the ones that will make you suffer because of disease. There is a much greater need to be able to manipulate reality than other people. In some ways the latter is a waste effort, a distraction from what truly matters.

Ultimately the reason I love MGTOW is because as an ideology, it gets us closer to the level of solitude where I think we need to be. We are getting further and further away from the waste and distraction of physical human interaction. Our minds are still connected through the internet, and there can still be physical co-operation, but we are spending less and less time "socializing", thus avoiding the tribal behavior our minds engage in when our lives revolve around other people.

Yes its degrading. I had to slog through shit and garbage in my young life as a child and to be seen to be equated to a sewage worker for the rest of my life is not something I take lightly. Yes its degrading just like any charged verbiage. How do you think you would take it if your name was replaced with Idiot, Stupid, Dimwit, and see if you will not think that its degrading.

You ever hear people say "if you get scammed, it's your own fault", or something to that extent? It's excellent advice in spite of the fact that it's not literally true. There are millions of scamsters in the world and only one you. It is not reasonable to expect that all of those millions of scamsters should just "stop scamming", if you want to live strongly, you need to be smart enough as a person to not get scammed, no matter how many people try to fool you. You need to be able to live in spite of the existence of such people.

There are millions of people who will try to degrade you. I learned to not see people when I was in elementary school. To some extent I was MGTOW already then: I realized that they had nothing to do with my main life, which was playing videogames in my free time. As long as I could prevent them from being violent towards me, that was all that mattered.

I am a man who cannot be shamed, humiliated or guilted. It is possible.

I guess when you are born with nothing and see and experience more human misery in your first ten years of your life then most see and experience in their entire life span it changes your perspective drastically.

How much misery do you actually see? Because once again, you are focused exclusively on the human aspect of it. All the evil and misery people have imposed on each others is but a drop of the ocean in the evils of a universe that murders hundreds of thousands of people each day. There is nothing in the laws of physics that prevents us from living trillions of years, from having minds vastly more potent than the ones we have now, and yet we live in a world where our life expectancy is in the triple digits and everyone is an idiot.

A Genius Man learns from others mistakes.

It's not enough. The hallmark of a genius has always been the fact that they can look past the human element and pull out the answers from where no one has ever gone before.

FYI You are guilty your self of Trying to shame me with language.

I suppose that's correct. Sorry for jumping down your throat. They were things I have wanted to say for a long time and I was going to say them even if I needed to force the issue.

[–]drkstrs2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your ability to socially and politically navigate the real world solely depends on other people.

This viewpoint has always been half wrong and in the modern era, is very, very wrong. It's old-fashioned. Yes, it used to be the case that your reputation determined your ability to support yourself. The work I do today is almost completely anonymous. My income is much, much more dependent on what I actually do than what people think of me.

You nailed it! This has been my thought and modus operandi for a long time and it has served me well. There is no need to join the chorus of sycophants all convinced they are creating their own outward facing personal brands. This is what teenagers think. Staying out of it has not impacted my ability to work. Long ago I realized that solitude was the prize and social interaction should occur on my own terms or not at all. Certainly the idea of maintaining a phony "real world" network is hopelessly outdated. What does that even mean nowadays? Most people already invest more time in their virtual identity than their "real" one.

[–]mgtow4ever0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This viewpoint has always been half wrong and in the modern era, is very, very wrong. It's old-fashioned. Yes, it used to be the case that your reputation determined your ability to support yourself. The work I do today is almost completely anonymous. My income is much, much more dependent on what I actually do than what people think of me.

What you think the reality should be is far from what it is. You are lucky enough to have a job that affords you that luxury of Meritocracy. Sadly most people don't have the option of that. Most work require collaboration on many levels and yes how people perceive you does matter. Society doesn't change over night to accommodate any ones beliefs and if anything that is true is that Meritocracy is less valuable then "Equality" Do I have to remind you who the CEO of Reddit is?

The problem with your perspective is that you are focusing too much on other people. Human society is but a small part of the real world. Reality is and has always been the greatest enemy. Reality is going to murder you way before you reach a trillion years of age. Having a big stick isn't going to stop that. Being respected won't help you. What you need is solely intelligence, the ability to bend reality to your will. I get where you are coming from, but it is very outdated. We live in a world where you can make money anonymously, you don't need to cultivate a network of people who respect you. Hell in some ways we don't even need other people anymore to beat reality. A single human mind could invent a superintelligent AI almost exclusively by their own effort. The type of viewpoint you are proposing has always ignored the ultimate, biggest stick in the room: the non-human part of reality. Other people are the least of your concern. They're not the ones that will murder you when you reach triple digits in age, they're not the ones that will make you suffer because of disease. There is a much greater need to be able to manipulate reality than other people. In some ways the latter is a waste effort, a distraction from what truly matters.

Talk about going of Tangent and completely going StarDusk. If you are going to start wondering into philosophical tangents you need to establish solid definitions. You choose to take abroad term as Reality and try use it as the primary focal point of your argument. This is the same as Feminists using "Equality" as an argument point.. Reality of what, Equality of What. The argument of Reality makes you sound completely unhinged, What exactly does manipulation of reality suppose to mean? Are we talking metaphysical, physical? The reality is that we live in a Society that has certain boundaries and norms and those take hundreds if not thousands of years to change. I live, work and function in the now not in some theoretical "tomorrow land" where we have Super-intelligent people and some omnipotent AI. Your perception of reality by your own words is not a definition of what reality is but what you would like it to be.

Ultimately the reason I love MGTOW is because as an ideology, it gets us closer to the level of solitude where I think we need to be. We are getting further and further away from the waste and distraction of physical human interaction. Our minds are still connected through the internet, and there can still be physical co-operation, but we are spending less and less time "socializing", thus avoiding the tribal behavior our minds engage in when our lives revolve around other people.

This is by far the worst reasoning you have presented yet. MGTOW is not an IDEOLOGY. Feminism, Marxism, Confucianism and most "isms" are Ideologies. MGTOW is more akin to a phenomenon, dare I almost say a social evolution, there are certain tenants that we as MGTOW share and those are primarily to do with Male Sovereignty from Gynocentrism. If you want to be an Ideologue then you should join MRHM and become a MRA. As for the 2nd portion of your paragraph, you simply are burying your head in the sand and believing that isolation somehow will enlighten you is illogical because no matter what you will always depend on others knowledge and wisdom. You come of sounding like a TFL (True Force Loner) You may wish to live like a monk but don't think that's everyone else reality or wish.

You ever hear people say "if you get scammed, it's your own fault", or something to that extent? It's excellent advice in spite of the fact that it's not literally true. There are millions of scamsters in the world and only one you. It is not reasonable to expect that all of those millions of scamsters should just "stop scamming", if you want to live strongly, you need to be smart enough as a person to not get scammed, no matter how many people try to fool you. You need to be able to live in spite of the existence of such people. There are millions of people who will try to degrade you. I learned to not see people when I was in elementary school. To some extent I was MGTOW already then: I realized that they had nothing to do with my main life, which was playing videogames in my free time. As long as I could prevent them from being violent towards me, that was all that mattered. I am a man who cannot be shamed, humiliated or guilted. It is possible.

I am having a difficult time understanding your argument here. (The scammer part)As for the rest I have one thing on my side you do not and that is statistics, if you think being degraded and the consequences of it mean nothing. I can present you with enough facts of Decline of Men, failure of boys to launch in Education, the hostile feminist take over of education. I am happy for you that you are an exception to the rule but a large chunk of our society doesn't seem to agree. All of over western society we see the slow demise of Male space and punishment. Unlike you I rather build a space where I can invite other men to come and join the space to exchange ideas, socialize and interact.

How much misery do you actually see? Because once again, you are focused exclusively on the human aspect of it. All the evil and misery people have imposed on each others is but a drop of the ocean in the evils of a universe that murders hundreds of thousands of people each day. There is nothing in the laws of physics that prevents us from living trillions of years, from having minds vastly more potent than the ones we have now, and yet we live in a world where our life expectancy is in the triple digits and everyone is an idiot.

Ok now you have completely went of Tangent. We are MGTOW because of society not anything else. You sound like a complete feminist in this argument, easily dismissing anything that may have happened to some one. The reset is just incoherent "wishy washy" jargon of "what ifs" rather then what is.

A Genius Man learns from others mistakes.

It's not enough. The hallmark of a genius has always been the fact that they can look past the human element and pull out the answers from where no one has ever gone before.

Actually most if not all human inventions are based on some one elses experiences, ideas or theories. Advances are based on predecessors ideas, theories or work, now that doesn't mean the prior work was correct. In fact most advances are based on the idea of what we call in our "Societal Reality" the "Scientific Method" Ie. Ancient Peoples saw the sun in the sky and land beneath them therefore the hypothesized that earth is middle of our reality then people such Copernicus said lets test that idea. Etc..

So the statement of A Genius Man learns from Others Mistakes is in fact correct. Actually most Geniuses don't see passed human elements but rather use their own Brilliance to Educate and enlighten those said human elements. With out the human element nothing would ever come to fruition.

I suppose that's correct. Sorry for jumping down your throat. They were things I have wanted to say for a long time and I was going to say them even if I needed to force the issue.

Unfortunatley I am guilty of same thing. I guess if you want to be called a Manchild and not find it degrading that's fine and all but your level of reasoning is on par with a child and since you seem to have some grasp of Adult things you are a Man but sadly you lack the wisdom, the experience and the logic to create a coherent argument. So enjoy the label of ManChild.

[–]OriginalGravy1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If you are going to start wondering into philosophical tangents you need to establish solid definitions.

Definitions, philosophy, labels. 99% of human philosophy is pure shit, a conglomerate of idiot babblers who have taken us further and further from an accurate view of reality, whose speech serves to confuse more so than it does to enlighten. Don't get caught up on meaning, arguments, labels, whatever. The point of communication is to analyze and derive the meaning of what another is trying to communicate. This meaning will always be wordless, because it refers to reality, specific things that just are, as opposed to concepts.

What exactly does manipulation of reality suppose to mean?

Take it at face-value and it's pretty obvious. I'm not waxing philosophy here, I am talking about using your mind and body to have an effect on reality. Of course, anything you do has an effect, so the point is specifically to choose for actions that have good effects, that make for a better reality.

Reality does encompass people as well, so when I speak of people and reality in the same sentence as if they were different things, I am speaking of the human part of reality and the non-human. The human part is the one that will degrade you, shame you. The non-human part is the one that is much more likely to kill you, by disease --- or "old age" as some would say. For an organism that values life, it is obvious which one is a bigger deal. Being shamed, suffering... it is pretty much irrelevant in the face of death.

Survival will always be the number one priority. Just because dying at a 100 is normal doesn't mean it's not a failure to survive. There is no law of physics that prevents you from living much, much longer. That is why our tribal instincts which make us focus so much on other people are dangerous. They blind us to the real struggle that all humans face: dying. You grow rich, respected and loved... and then you die. To hell with it. I'd rather be alive. It's good. It's fun. I will not die because I spent my entire life trying to mold myself into a "respected member of society".

As for the 2nd portion of your paragraph, you simply are burying your head in the sand and believing that isolation somehow will enlighten you is illogical because no matter what you will always depend on others knowledge and wisdom.

This is what I'm specifically arguing against. If you limit yourself to learning from others, you are limited to the knowledge that mankind currently knows. You are incapable of deriving an answer that no one has yet formulated, or thought of. That knowledge has to come from somewhere, the idea that all human knowledge is derivative is circular. If you got your knowledge from someone else, where did they get it? Another person? Then where did that person get it? It is impossible for it to be people all the way down, follow that thread for long enough, and you will find a man who looked at reality and came upon an original answer.

You are going to die in your hundreds. That is not something that past knowledge will change. Someone, at least one person, probably several, will need to use their minds to come up with wholly new ideas for that to change. They are not answers that people will find through social games. They exist in the nonhuman part of reality.

I am happy for you that you are an exception to the rule but a large chunk of our society doesn't seem to agree. All of over western society we see the slow demise of Male space and punishment. Unlike you I rather build a space where I can invite other men to come and join the space to exchange ideas, socialize and interact.

My point is that we need for that exception to become a norm. It is unacceptable for men to break from words alone. If society is shit, it is ultimately because the people are not good enough. The spaces, or whatever, don't matter. What we're doing wrong doesn't matter as much as why we are doing things wrong. It's because we aren't smart enough, strong enough. The focus needs to be on what a man should be, not what a man is.

Actually most Geniuses don't see passed human elements but rather use their own Brilliance to Educate and enlighten those said human elements. With out the human element nothing would ever come to fruition.

This is how philosophy has ruined your mind. They use their brilliance to educate and enlighten? The words are completely devoid of meaning in context, they are just empty positive labels, the same way genius is a positive label. What you are saying amounts to nothing more than: a good label is a good label is a good label. This is not what fundamentally separates genius from non-genius.

Learning from the mistakes of others is standard rational behavior. It is not what separates a genius from a non-genius. A genius is a genius even in the wilderness. The fact that you cannot see this is proof how tangled your mind has, incapable of seeing reality past the human aspect of it. Being a genius is about being sensitive to causality --- an intuitive understanding of how reality works. It will manifest in all areas of life, but its primary value is in reaching answers that no human has yet thought of, in seeing beyond humanity. Whether they are standing upon the shoulders of giants or not is irrelevant: the flash of inspiration that brings forth an answer is wholly personal. It does not come automatically from the accumulation of human knowledge. It requires looking at, and thinking, about reality. Even in the wilderness with no shoulders to stand upon, a genius would learn to understand reality. It just so happens that our greatest achievements do require those shoulders: that is the value that civilization has. An excessive emphasis on other people is just tribal behavior. The importance is the value that others have discovered: every one of those values is an instance of genius at work. They are why we have anything to build upon at all. To be a genius is not primarily about learning from negatives, it is adding positives.

I guess if you want to be called a Manchild and not find it degrading that's fine and all but your level of reasoning is on par with a child and since you seem to have some grasp of Adult things you are a Man but sadly you lack the wisdom, the experience and the logic to create a coherent argument. So enjoy the label of ManChild.

Right back at you. The fact that I am a "child" and you are an "adult" is what makes me stronger than you. It means my mind still remains unbroken by such nonsense as "being an adult". It means I have yet to be poisoned by the inertia of society. My mind is still free of the trash that slowly accumulates as one passively absorbs cultural and social norms.

I can still be something more than just another normal person. I will be a child even in my thousands.

[–]drkstrs2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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