A fundamental Problem with gender equality activism

EsraYmssik · 2020-04-12T20:20:04+00:00

Frankly, no.

Feminism and the MRM LITERALLY 2 sides of the same coin.

Arguably true as, in many ways, the MRM as it exists today makes the same calls for relaxing gender norms/roles as feminis does.

Groups fighting for gender equality.

The MRM? Yes.

Feminism? Not so much.

But they're just looking at the worst parts of the other movement.

The 'worst' part of the MRM is people who aren't MRAs. We're constantly conflated with incels, PUAs, MGTOW, and murderous nutbags like Anders Brevik.

'We' look at how continued strict gender roles for men and how society has ceased honouring men who fulfill them, but expect it anyway and look for ways to improve the situation.

Incels are angry at women and have, sadly, talked themselves into positions of actual hate. If there's any actual 'misogyny' in the 'manosphere' (though I hate the term) it comes from these guys. Men, as much as women, crave emotional connection and physical intimacy (not just sexual) and the lack can be really damaging. I can understand where they come from, and sympathise, but they're not us.

Incels look at how the nature of dating/relationships has changed, and are angered by the fact their efforts to accomodate those changes aren't recognised, because they're not 'woke' enough nor 'manly' (in the sense of fitting 'trad' male roles) enough.

PUAs look at the shift as a way to get laid, to use the new 'normal' to their advantage.

MGTOW look at things and say, essentially, "the rules are stacked against me, as a man, I'm not going to play."

Sure, there's some overlaps, but a lot of time there's a definite distinction between the groups. MRAs mock PUAs as leches, PUAs (and MGTOWs) mock MRAs as fools. Incels hate PUAs for getting what they want, and MRAs for not seeing the world as it truly is.

Returning to my main point, MRAs focus on specific issues men face, they (we) point out how unequal treatment hurts men (frex circumcision or rape laws) and we seek specific remedies.

There are no great MRM 'theories', just observation.

Feminism has LOTS of theories.

The first being that women are oppressed as a class, now and throughout history, and they will cherry-pick facts to support that idea.

They have 'patriarchy theory', that holds that men somehow created a system to elevate ALL men and oppress ALL women. Never mind the suicide and death gaps, never mind the homelessness gap, never mind the fact that more men are raped in US prisons annually than women in the entire world.

Never mind that young men are frequently the target of military violence, that while we cried "bring back our girls" nobody gave a shit about the biys Boko Haram murdered. Never mind wartime rape of men. Never mind the US military being ordered to ignore the rape of young boys by 'allies' in Afghanistan'.

There's feminist theories on film, TV, literature. There's theories on all sorts of stuff.

MRAs don't go for theories.

Of course, the biggest difference is I've never heard of someone who said something that disagreed with the MRM receiving death threats credible enough for the police to get involved and force someone to flee the country.

Heck, you demonstrate a fundamental difference betweeen the two movements in this post. You won't get banned from here and your post won't get deleted.

C_____j · 2020-04-12T20:04:02+00:00

The difference is that here we are keen to listen to everyone and don't hate women. Just considered that your post on r/feminism was already banned while here it is still up.

jl05419 · 2020-04-12T22:51:03+00:00

I'm from Spain and maybe I shouldn't coment because probably most of people here (like in whole reddit) is from USA,Australia or Canada but i will say may opinion as some other countries may be similar.

My first problem whit feminism is how toxic they see masculinity. It's not something bad itself, as all actitudes being extreme it can be negative but i don't see how being competitive can be bad (for me it's what makes people be better) for example. But this point is more moral and subjective so it isn't much of a problem with half the feminist i know but for the other half it can become a problem. Things like what they tried to do a few years ago here when they tried to ban almost all sports from school because it's competitve and encourages boys to be competitive and winnig the girlsis bad, this is an example of this idea taken to the extreme that i can't agree.

My second and most important problem is that mostly the feminism looks at the result not how the proces is. By this i mean that if they want the same result for both genders not the same method to obtaining it. Last year (if i remember corectly) in a university of Madrid half the places of informatic and some engineering had half of the slots reserved for women and the other half were for the ones whit higher notes. This was made because from their prespective the sistem was only fair if the result were 50/50 not by the fact that the most qualified people/that wants(engineering is quite low) could enter. Seeing equality this way is something i can't agree but it's how it's seen here. Men and women doesn't have the same preferences statisticaly so for me is just common sense that the end result won't be the same, if there is no impedement based on your gender to do something just your skills for me the sistem is fair. Also notice how in this aspect only is bad when women are the minority, I still remember when the diversity department of my university complained about how the medicine deparment were 4 man and 2 women and how that was unfair but in no moment they realized that all the diversity department are women saying that:" they only accepted the most cualified ones unlike the medicine department" which is wrong as is based on how many works/contribution have you make.

As you said both movements aim for the same idea but for me is the details what makes them differ (mostly the 2nd one). Obviusly in both movents are extremist and i think that being a little part of it giving them more importance and attention only makes all of this worst.

Sorry if it's hard to understand i'm not native speaker and have some dislexia kinda problem.

DubsPackage · 2020-04-13T07:07:47+00:00

Edit: The mod's of r/feminism romeved the post. WOW

Edit 2: I received a 1 year ban from r/feminism for the crime of wanting the infighting to stop.

Grats.

Now you understand why MRA and Feminism are not a mirror image of each other.

lol

lolis-are-so-cute · 2020-04-12T19:52:54+00:00

Because that's all we really have. Our own group where we can somewhat vent to one another and feel understood.

We aren't organized enough that we can become a group and have any kind of discourse, mainly because we have no clear leaders and secondly, even if we did have leaders, there would be disagreements in between groups on what the leader should advocate for.

You are right though.

But I see no clear solution.

So until then - I'm subscribed to this nice little echo chamber here.

PlatinumBeetle · 2020-04-12T21:55:37+00:00

Each movement keeps blaming the other for it's problems, while not understanding it's own.

I don't dispute that we sometimes blame feminism beyond what is constructive and feminists beyond what is true (feminists are not feminism, some feminists are mostly decent people caught up in a web of destructive propaganda).

Nor do I dispute that sometimes some of us promote hate of feminists (I'm fine with hate of feminism as an ideology as long as it doesn't extend to all the people who align themselves with it) or sometimes, more rarely, even women in general whether consciously and intentionally or through apathy or thoughtlessness.

The difference is feminism actually is responsible for our problems. The MRM is relatively small and new compared to feminism and most of what we have to complain about was either directly caused by feminism or made worse by it due to it's drastically greater influence.

You are confusing feminism and the MRM with women and men. Or possibly the MRM with "patriarchy" (I use quotes because the feminist version of the concept is too vague to be useful for much of anything besides blaming men).

If you really believe what you're saying and hope feminists do too then watch this video and send it to feminists to see what they think:

https://youtu.be/vwKLTVCJn6Q

2020-04-13T00:36:11+00:00

Our chiefest, most fundamental problem is miscommunication, both accidental and deliberate. It's difficult to have a meaningful dialogue when either side is unwilling to listen to the other, and even more so when either side has trouble really explaining their position. It's the kind of thing you'd normally go to couple's therapy for, only splattered out across the entire populace.

user_miki · 2020-04-13T07:09:52+00:00

You just proved yourself wrong.MRM does not perpetuate hate.

eldred2 · 2020-04-14T01:14:27+00:00

Edit: The mod's of r/feminism romeved the post. WOW

Edit 2: I received a 1 year ban from r/feminism for the crime of wanting the infighting to stop.

Maybe next time do a bit of research before you post. It is the work of only a few minutes to see many fundamental differences.

Title	A fundamental Problem with gender equality activism
Author	ZEGEZOT
Upvotes	22
Comments	24
Date	April 12, 2020 7:40 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g039az/a_fundamental_problem_with_gender_equality/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-fundamental-problem-with-gender-equality.855034 https://theredarchive.com/post/855034

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