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child support and abortion

toptrool

June 5, 2013

24 upvotes

/r/MensRights

https://sites.google.com/site/roeflip/addendum/gender/child-support

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Post Information

Title	child support and abortion
Author	toptrool
Upvotes	24
Comments	48
Date	June 5, 2013 4:02 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1fq7ia/child_support_and_abortion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/child-support-and-abortion.1172047 https://theredarchive.com/post/1172047

Comments

[–]Tastysalad101 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lgc902 points 13 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pecanpig 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I don't know for sure.

We could demand that before adoption can take place the correct father (proven with DNA) must be notified. But there are instances where this might not be a good idea.

Where the woman had a one night stand with someone unknown and the father simply cannot be found, this limits her ability to give her child a better home. (This happened to past friend, she had 4 guys dna tested and none of them were the dad. She did not give the child up however.) This scenario is probably pretty rare though.

Another problem would be rape victims who did not report for whatever reason. Does a rapist have rights to the child? Does an accused rapist have the right to defend himself? What are the child's rights?

Not sure if there is an easy answer. I just know it needs to be at least acknowledged that even though the father is supposed to have legal rights to challenge an adoption, it is fairly easy to deny him this.

[–]Lawtonfogle 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The argument could be made that a rapist is a bad role model for children, but on the other hand so is alcoholism, drug addiction, obesity, etc. If the child is a girl I could see the court raising a safety issue with her, especially if the mother was young.

I guess my concern was the scenario that a woman is raped (actually raped against her will, not consensual drunk regret raped) and she cannot raise a child due to monetary and emotional reasons so chooses adoption. The father is notified and refuses to allow the adoption. This leaves her in the position to have to either let her rapist (a man who criminally violated her) have her child, or struggle to raise the child herself, when she knows she cannot.

I have a hard time with that. It may be logically the right thing to do is make her do this, but morally it stings as much as a man who is denied his child. I guess we have to err on one side or the other, but neither side is very palatable.

[–]Lawtonfogle 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

We could demand that before adoption can take place the correct father (proven with DNA) must be notified.

That's already done. In fact, there are registries where presumed fathers can sign up to be more easily notified in case a woman decides to abort or give the child up for adoption.

Of course, like you said, that can get in the way in cases where the father really doesn't want to be found. There are specific steps that adoptions lawyers and agencies take to make sure that the father has the chance to step up if he wants to. If they have his name, they notify him personally. If they don't, they put out ads in all the newspapers where he might live. If the father still can't be found after they've exhausted all possibilities, they can then proceed. However, there have been cases where the father stepped up after the adoption had already gone through, and he still got his child back.

There are flaws in the system, of course, that women who are dead set can abuse. But that's true of virtually every system. I've thought about it a lot, and I really can't come up with a better way to do it, either.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say where the father did not 'want' to be found. I said where the father 'could' not be found-that is a big difference. I object to this because it is painting the men in a bad light.

There are lots of reasons why someone cannot be found-if they are from out of town on business for example and there was no reason to leave contact info. The people met at a concert, airport, hotel, college party, or numerous other venues where people from various locations congregate.

As I said, if the father has no clue the woman is even pregnant, then there is no way he can know, no reason to be on a registry, no reason to suspect.

It needs to be acknowledged that this system errs on the side of the mother. The government does at least now try to find the father, but when feminism insists that women are oppressed by the patriarchy, it needs to be known that this same system is erring on the side of women. I think you will find there are many parts of this 'patriarchy' that err on the side of women.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry. That was a poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to paint anyone in a bad light; that was my own personal bias slipping out.

Of course, many aspects of parenthood favor mothers. That's just a given. Unfortunately, man's law comes second to nature's law, and nature insists on women bearing children. That means that there's no way to mistake who the mother of a child is, but it's very easy to mistake who the father is in some cases. We've built a system to try to even the playing field, but it's not going to ever be perfectly fair. There are still some aspects of legal parenthood that I object to, but I don't think there's any way to be more fair in regard to adoption.

I think you will find there are many parts of this 'patriarchy' that err on the side of women.

Many feminists openly acknowledge this. It's a common feminist talking point that the patriarchy hurts everyone, including men.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Celda 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

In fact, there are registries where presumed fathers can sign up to be more easily notified in case a woman decides to abort or give the child up for adoption.

You are talking about putative father registries.

And you are quite mistaken.

PFR's are not designed to give help fathers - they are designed to screw over men.

If you don't sign the PFR (suppose you don't know it exists, because they don't publicize it) then you don't have a right to your child and the woman can freely adopt it out without your consent or knowledge.

There are specific steps that adoptions lawyers and agencies take to make sure that the father has the chance to step up if he wants to. If they have his name, they notify him personally. If they don't, they put out ads in all the newspapers where he might live.

No. That is false.

They do not have to do this, nor do they.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Adoption Facts: Understanding the Birthfather's Rights

Admittedly, it's a lot more tricky for unwed fathers. If you're married to the mother, you're automatically presumed to be the father (which can cause trouble if the wife has an affair, but I digress), meaning there isn't as much red tape to go through to assert parental rights. If you're an unwed father, you have to sign a paternity acknowledgement form (with a prior DNA test, if your'e smart) or get a court order stating that you're the father. Adoptions can be put on hold while all of this goes down, though, because adoption agencies don't want to deal with the hassle that comes when a biological father steps up after the adoption has gone through.

As for cases where the father has absolutely no idea about the pregnancy to begin with... I have no idea what to do about that. Like I said to dogcrazyjen, the system can never be absolutely perfect. It's unfortunate that it happens, but thankfully, it's pretty rare.

[–]lgc901 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]username156 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]VoodooIdol 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]username156 -4 points-3 points-2 points 13 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]HappyGerbil88 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Adoption, however, is 100% effective. Man gives his rights/responsibilities to the child up the same way as a single mother can give hers up via adoption. If the mother is not able to raise the child on her own, she may give it up for adoption. If the mother is able to raise the child on her own, then she keeps it and raises it on her own. Please show me where the harm is in either one of those scenarios.

Hypothetical: A single woman gets pregnant, and for whatever reason is unable to have an abortion. So, she gives the child up for adoption. Is she a deadbeat loser for doing so? If the adoptive parents later decide that they want child support, should they be allowed to sue the biological mother? Should she still be responsible for "said child" in our society?

Now, exact same scenario, except the genders are reversed. Please tell me why you believe the answers to the above questions should be different when a man instead of a woman is trying to give up his rights/responsibilities to a child. What men are asking for is no different than when a single mother gives her child up for adoption.

Additionally, be aware that this is not simply something that affects "accidental" pregnancies. Men are required to pay child support in cases of deliberate deception and even flat out rape.

[–]VoodooIdol 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]VoodooIdol 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HappyGerbil88 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VoodooIdol 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]username156 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]angryjack 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]username156 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Furthermore,as a father who pays child support,I have no regard for men who make excuses why they shouldn't financially support their children. She got pregnant,got a paternity test,I pay and have partial custody. Saying 'I never wanted a kid' or 'how do I know it's even mine' doesn't make you a 'men's rights' advocate. It makes you a scumbag. I was railroaded in my child support case and had to specifically obtain a 'men's rights' lawyer to prove my side,which is the main reason I subscribed to this sub. It seems as of late that this sub(only in the child support area) has become a means of justification for shirking your responsibility. I love 75% of posts on this sub. The rape double-standard and many other double-standards that are literally jailing or killing good men and fathers. In this case I'm just gonna have to disagree with you and OP. While I did not specifically choose to have a child,I'm not gonna leave him high and dry just because I feel it's 'not fair'. He's a human being. It's 'men's rights'. Feminists look like morons for the stuff that they are saying,don't do it to us. Men's rights is an actual issue,not an excuse to screw over a little kid who has 50% of your DNA.

[–]Celda 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]username156 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well those are several different situations which were not the subject of OPs cartoon. Says 'this is a man that got a woman pregnant,THEN decided he didn't want to be a father. In my situation,for example,if had a specific conversation on how neither of us wanted children,and she lied to me about birth control or poked a fuckin hole in my condom,I'd be pissed to say the least. Also I'd fight child support all the way. That's not the issue. The subject was about how we have no say in abortion so we shouldn't be held responsible. I just can't get on board with that. And you don't have to insult me. I'm not trolling some subreddit. I'm a dude who almost got fucked by the family court system,where there is a glaring double-standard between men and women. That's why I came to this sub. But I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut on shit that is detrimental to Men's Right's. If we say "I can't have an abortion,so I'm not paying a dime",it makes us sound like bitter,angry deadbeats and that's when people stop listening. And we'll continue to get screwed in court,falsely accused of rape,raped ourselves and mocked/disbelieved,falsely accused of sexual harassment etc.

TL:DR It's the little down arrow on the left. It'll turn blue.

[–]Celda 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]angryjack 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]username156 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]toptrool[S] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]toptrool[S] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lawtonfogle 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Lawtonfogle 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link