~ archived since 2018 ~

From askfeminists FAQ

Astavri

January 22, 2021

0 upvotes

Why don't feminists care more about men's issues?

Feminism has mixed feelings about directly addressing men’s problems. Many feminists fear that addressing men’s issues, or “gender issues” as a broad goal, will move the conversation completely away from women’s issues (remember, we live in a male-dominated society still). So instead they focus on women’s issues, and allow others to focus on their issues. Many feminists would like to see pro-feminist men tackle men’s issues in a way that doesn’t blame women and feminism for all their problems (see MRAs). Many feminists do care about men's issues, but demanding that feminists dedicate exactly 50% of their time and resources to such things is unreasonable. Please check out

As I've said, feminism isn't about equality for all, it's about equality when women have a disadvantage.

But specifically look at the part of men handle men's issues. But no one cares about men's issues. NO ONE. Not you fuckers. 70% of you care about bashing feminism. (I know I'll get replies only for this comment)

This sub needs to be a little less about hating feminism and more about men's issues. Im not going to respond to you if you want to mention all examples of how feminism has done men a disservice.

There are bad apples and bad laws. I'm tired of attacking feminism. It's a losing battle.

Focus on luring people to help mens issues, instead 70% of y'all are blaming feminism.

Again, PROGRESS MENS ISSUES. Toxic feminism is going to bring itself down don't worry.

Don't let MRA bring itself down. Yes I know what sub I'm on. Justify hating groups and people won't touch MRA with a 10 foot pole.

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Post Information

Title	From askfeminists FAQ
Author	Astavri
Upvotes	0
Comments	94
Date	January 22, 2021 5:07 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/l2gnep/from_askfeminists_faq/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/from-askfeminists-faq.835578 https://theredarchive.com/post/835578

Comments

[–]EmirikolWoker 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (78 children) | Copy Link

[+]Astavri -6 points-5 points-4 points 5 years ago (77 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmirikolWoker 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (76 children) | Copy Link

Here are a few rights women have and men lack, with commentary on feminism's contributions:

Presumed custody of children in the case of divorce. This was exacerbated by the Tender Years Doctrine, spearheaded by first-wave feminist Caroline Norton, and perpetuated by modern feminists through lobbying groups' efforts against rebuttable presumed shared custody.
Seperation of consent to sex from consent to parenthood and the responsibilities thereof. Feminist commentators have said that a unilaterally male-controlled contraceptive would "take away womens' choices".
Bodily integrity (i.e., genital mutilation. For girls its a violation of international law; for men it's at best unusual but tolerable, and at worst actively campaigned for as an eroneous means of combating AIDS). Feminists, while claiming to be advocates for "equality", are curiously quiet on this issue, compared to their efforts on FGM.
Immunity from accusations of rape. Rape requires the perpetrator to have a penis, so when women engage in nonconsentual sex with men, he is more likely to be charged than she is. This is mainly the work of Feminist researcher Mary Koss, from whom feminists get the eroneous 1-in-4 statistic. And if a woman gets pregnant from raping a man (or boy), she can sue her rape victim for child support.

[–]Astavri -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 years ago (75 children) | Copy Link

Tender year doctrine wasnt a feminist movement. She was not a feministz she wanted her children. Courts agreed, judged agreed. This has been changed in most areas to include "best interest of the child." Still In practice.
This is a unique situation unlike any other. Men do have no say you are right. Religion had authority, no abortions. Someone has to take care of the child, this is child support. Yes can be manipulated, but use a condom jeez. They can fail or be tricked but it doesn't happen often.

Blame the states for not wanting to pay. "American courts in the nineteenth century addressed the problem of dependency among single mothers and their children by creating a legally enforceable child support duty."

Has occured WAY before feminism. Feminism isn't actively against stopping this, but they are not actively trying to stop it.
Rape of men has been a women only issue LONG before feminism. In fact, feminism supported expanding the definition of rape to INCLUDE men in statistical analysis by the government (therefore funding) .

2 arguments WAY before feminism. 1 is unique situation due to many factors

1 is outdated and changed, but still practiced often. Occured before women had real rights, before feminism.

You had ONE half decent argument about consent and parenthood.

[–]EmirikolWoker 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago* (74 children) | Copy Link

OK, your formatting is a bit weird, but I think I understand which points each paragraph refers to. From what I'm understanding, the core of your argument seems to be that if there are any other factors outside of feminist action, feminism is blameless and therefore citing the actions of feminist organisations and individuals is erroneous.

1) Child custody:

This is the first time I've heard anyone claim that suffragette Caroline Norton wasn't a feminist.

Feminist organisations like NOW and NOMAS have described fathers' rights groups as "an abuser's lobby", and NOW has successfully lobbied against every shared parenting bill in the US (other groups have done similarly elsewhere), by mischaracterising the bills as enforced custody regardless of circumstances, rather than rebuttable default custody, modified by circumstances. Regardless of where it came from (i.e., whether you accept that first wave feminists like Norton were actually feminists), feminists perpetuate this gendered inequality, while also blaming men ("Patriarchal norms").

2) Seperation of consent to sex from consent to parenthood

Mens options are:

condoms
vasectomy

If either of those fail, he's shit out of luck. He's either stuck in the relationship, stuck with a drastically reduced income to support a child he didn't want, or a prison sentence until he gets his act together and pays for the child he had no say in the creation thereof.

Womens options include:

condoms
sterilisation
implants
IUS/IUD
patches
pills
diaphragms
vaginal rings

If any of those fail, she has options to negate her parenthood responsibilities:

abortion at various stages
adoption
safe-haven abandonment

Feminist commentators like Jessica Valenti have spoken out against development of male contraceptive, because it would take away women's choices, and put too much reproductive power in the hands of men. Regardless of where it came from, this is one example of feminists publically advocating against a resolution of a mens' rights issue.

3) infant genital mutilation

I'll grant you, I've seen less active pro-male-genital-mutilation activity. But feminists do say that MGM just isn't as serious as FGM, that it's just not the same, and that there are more important issues to worry about (such as the exact thing happening to girls in whatever middle-eastern village we haven't bombed yet). Again, no claims that feminism was the root cause, but they're impeding things.

4) rape of men

Are you honestly saying that the definition of rape as a male-only crime (originating from Feminist Mary Koss' research, funded by feminist publication Ms. Magazine, and using a feminist academic lens) isn't an example of feminism harming men's rights issues?

Yes, feminists did support expanding the defintion of rape. Not specifically to men, but to include anal and oral penetration. Good luck excluding men from that category while we've still got mouths and anuses. However, they didn't propose redefining it as something women can do too, only expanding the ways in which men can victimise others (primarily women).

Occured before women had real rights, before feminism.

I never claimed that feminism was the sole cause of mens' issues (though the child support issue is exactly that). Only that they form the biggest resistance to reform.

I think your confusion comes from thinking that feminism and womens rights advocacy are synonymous. Womens rights advocacy is the noun of the verb (advocacy -> to advocate). Anyone who advocates for women to have rights is a womens rights advocate. Feminism is an ideology, one whose foundational principals are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for them to accurately describe reality. You an advocate for womens rights without believing in patriarchy - most people on this sub do exactly that.

[–]hypercube885 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Astavri -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Astavri -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmirikolWoker 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (70 children) | Copy Link

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[–]bufedad0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

They don't measure men being disadvantaged as equality....

This is the second time you've accused me of lying, only to be thoroughly proven wrong.

UN Women uses the GII (Gender Inequality Index).

On every issue, they scale from Zero (men and women are equal) to 1 (women are disadvantaged). There is literally no measurement for men being disadvantaged.

The GII varies between 0 (when women and men fare equally) and 1 (when men or women fare poorly compared to the other in all dimensions). It is designed to reveal the extent to which national human development achievements are eroded by gender inequality, and to provide empirical foundations for policy analysis and advocacy efforts.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/gender-inequality-index-gii

So, now you've proven you support protecting rapists, and you support (in your words) radical feminist organizations.

Here's a tip for future debates. When you belong to a hate movement, and get challenged to provide a single organization in said hate movement that isn't hateful or discriminatory.... Don't. Because you can't. (UN Women being such an example.)

[–]Astavri0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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MRA keep dogmatically believing that men are anywhere nearly raped as much as women.

I understand men are raped but not in the same numbers and HOW CAN IT BE PROVED. The same argument for many cases of women accusing rape.

How can some of these women prove they were raped if they didn't take the necessary precautions.

So it goes unpunished.. both genders, yet women who are raped don't get justice at higher rates because they are raped more.

You don't care to hear facts. Because you blatantly said the facts are wrong.

So how can someone change your dogmatic opinion if stats/facts are wrong as well?

Rape victims don't get justice. You can't have due diligence and justice for all victims. Women are disproportionally affected from rape injustice FACT.

Here is evidence not that you care.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

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Women's shelters are mostly domestic violence if that's what you mean.

I don't know that feminists are to blame for men being raped not being a crime. If so, no one in the US.

UK says vaginal penetration is rape. Anything else is sexual assault. Even forcing to penetrate.

So feminists have actively tried to prevent anal penetration as being called rape for women as well? Is that what you are telling me?

Just because the law doesn't exist doesn't mean it's the doing of feminism or all women rights groups are feminist, or the majority of feminists are like that.

What do you think the TERFs are? Do you think majority of feminists take them seriously?

Don't give me that nonsense bullshit.

You want to take down ALL feminism equally. How would you feel about taking down MensLiberation? They want to help men, but I'd bet you'd go against them regardless of progressing men's issues.

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[–]EmirikolWoker 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But who defined that the word feminism is male hating?

It's not about definitions, but about logical necessities. If you believe that:

Society is Male Dominated
Male dominance privileges men over women
While some men can sometimes be harmed by this system, the system itself is set up to privilege men and subjugate women for mens express benefit.
Men are in power and the system operates to benefit and serve mens' needs, drives, and interests at the expense of womens' needs, drives, and interests.

It's logical that the oppression of women is in mens' inclinations (including all the women they claim to "love"), and men aren't going to change that, even when men are suffering from it. Women, despite the incredible influence of mothers over their children, have been unable to raise men to be anything other than this kind of monster.

"Radical" feminists take this to the logical conclusion: men are a threat that needs to be eliminated and/or tightly controlled, because they're not going to change. Anything less is inconsistent, with a cognitive dissonance that hasn't be resolved (i.e., men must change/men can't change).

[–]bufedad 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Astavri -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years.

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i0j2g9/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i6sdli/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iavcnv/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

And it isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

[–]Astavri -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Walrus6942061 points 5 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

classic feminist ignoring facts

[–]Astavri -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]Walrus6942061 points 5 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

You literally said " Feminists do not protect female rapists. This is a lie. Some idiots may defend a woman's action, some say due diligence. But the judicial system is to blame. "

Just read what my man u/bufedad said above instead of saying
"

I'm not reading that shit. Don't be stuoid

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