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Welcome to the Second Wave

salient_punt

March 5, 2013

11 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Post Information

Title	Welcome to the Second Wave
Author	salient_punt
Upvotes	11
Comments	51
Date	March 5, 2013 8:30 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/19q7f6/welcome-to-the-second-wave/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/welcome-to-the-second-wave.1607560 https://theredarchive.com/post/1607560

Comments

[–]Pornography_saves_li-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's the first site with several authors, but definitely not the first site. Or even the first forum.

Look, AVfM is doing good work, no doubt. And there is a lot to be said for the notion that AVfM is the sort of Town Square of certain segments of the MRM. Certainly a lot of the thinkers go there to write.

But seriously, is this the position of AVfM now? That they ARE the MRM? Look at how clickey and exclusionary AVfM has gotten. Look at how dogmatic and 'SRS' like the place is now....

Jesus, look at the flat out intolerance of dissenting view of ANY kind? AVfM is one of many sites, yes, and I'll stick by that. I will also say that the MRM gains most of it's influence through the Game community (still) when it comes to reaching men, and through Feminist opposition to us, when it comes to reaching women.

Sorry to be 'that guy', but for fuck sakes people, watch what you're doing.

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]astrokid1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Typhon, If you look at the comments on that article, RodVanMechelen disputes the characterization, and Tawil agrees and says

there were/are a small percentage of right wing partisans that have always dominated the public face of the MRM – lets just say they constituted 5% of the MRM for argument’s sake, individuals who tended to drown out the rest of the men of both left and right persuasions who were not domineering divisive partisans – ie. the latter group were happy to agree to differ and to work together against misandry.

Now I dont know who that 5% were.. but looking at historical documents (or videos.. such as the NBC Mel Feit one I posted on the AVFM thread.. or the 76 one by Herb Goldberg on the Donahue show), its quite clear that MRAs then wanted to be liberated from their traditionalist roles, as they had a clear idea of misandry in many overarching spheres of life.. both traditionalist and feminist.

I agree with the other commenter that the language of the article could have been more humble.. such as the below.

Having observed the MRM for three decades I have no hesitation in confirming that the men-are-human-beings focus suddenly emerged into popular consciousness with the birth of A Voice For Men in 2009

[–]typhonblue2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]astrokid1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you really believe that Warren Farrell who coined 'male disposablity' didnt have an understanding that there is a lack of compassion for men, and that a gender transition movement should fight for that? In The Lace Curtain, Farrell says:

The Lace Curtain works... By the training of feminists in women’s studies’ programs who then become the only experts on gender in all institutions working on gender questions. In the process, the three other major perspectives of the gender dialogue go unrepresented. The perspectives of: non-traditional men who feel both sexes’ traditional role needs changing, and both sexes need equal compassion in making that transition. This group sees itself as temporarily focused on men’s issues, but ultimately being part of a gender transition movement. They believe that historically neither sex was a victim, they both had roles necessary to survival.

Take a look a this from Robert Anton Wilson from 1996 Blinded by bigotry? Taking a closer look at Androphobia

As the sociologist Lawrence Diggs has said, racism remains totally visible whether from whites against blacks or from blacks against whites, but sexism remains totally invisible if it comes from women against men. We would think it pathetic but perfectly "normal" and natural if Danny Quayle or Bill Clinton had to spend their lives in wheelchairs like Ron Kovic, but it only becomes monstrous and unthinkable if you imagine it happening to a pure, noble, female creature -- like Tonya Harding, say. We only regard our allegedly sub-human males as expendable, like laboratory animals. Women we see as truly and fully human, and hence not mere "cannon fodder."

He even uses the term "The New Jews" to describe men's status.

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]astrokid1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Typhon, For me personally, the NOMAAM blog helped the most.. esp the writings of the old giants Schopenhauer and before, as well as Zed. It was only after than I came to AVFM. After listening/reading to a little bit of the mythopoetics, its clear to me that they were early MGTOWs.. having an inward focus and trying to find their own well-being. I havent been there from the beginning, and you also missed the whole lot of ground action of brick and mortar orgs from 70s-90s. I can only piece together what documents are available to me.

An earlier post by Rod Is gender egalitarianism libertarian? contains a link to their org called MERGE (Movement for Real Gender Equality) from 1987.. and their first resolution is:

I- Resolution on Gender Roles Whatever value they may once have had, in today's technological and overpopulated world, rigid external gender roles are obsolete. In fact, strict role expectations have done vast amounts of harm to men and women alike. Individuals differ greatly from one another in their needs, tastes and abilities, hence moral equality demands that each person have the freedom to be different. Be it therefore resolved that neither of the traditional sex roles, nor a single "androgynous" one, be enforced by law or social pressure; all three, and others as well, are worthy of respect if freely chosen.

As Richard Doyle says:

Until recently, communication has been practically non-existent. Each new group had to reinvent the wheel; and still does. They rediscovered the same issues, gave the same speeches spoken decades before by their predecessors―and still give them, imagining they are boldly going where no man has gone before. Each suggestor and spokesman usually operating under the naive assumption his ideas are new and unique. The movement has been bogged down for decades debating minor issues and prematurely proposing various tactics, however excellent they may be. The new guard became the old guard, as ‘summer soldiers’ dropped out; the cycle begins over and over (plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose). What a waste of talent and experience! The inefficiency boggles the mind.

There are several instances which dont corroborate the original assertion. So if you really want to prove your case, you will have to produce evidence beyond an assertion. Its not worth arguing over, so I suggested a lil humility in the original article.

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]so_concerned1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SarcastiCock1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Fine...I'll do this.

Having observed the MRM for three decades I have no hesitation in confirming that the men-are-human-beings focus suddenly emerged into popular consciousness with the birth of A Voice For Men in 2009, a forum whose articles popularized the idea and inaugurated a distinct ‘second wave’ of the men’s movement based on human rights principles.

Having spent an equal amount of time in the movement, I can say with certainty that correlation is not causation, and there were plenty of places with this sentiment included in the discourse. What AVfM does different, is remove those who do not conform to this ideal, thus more 'pure second wave'.

It is not a 'new' phenomenon, nor did AVfM popularize it. AVfM focussed on it. There remains to this day ample amounts of non-AVfM MRA site content that contains these beliefs as well as others.

In this, at least, you may have something...'Ideological Purity' might be the hallmark of the Second Wave.

Nationally and internationally networked (as opposed to the poorly networked 1st wave);

The MRM was International since the inception of the Internet...and BY FAR predates the establishment of AVfM.

And while it is more organized, it is purely a function of giving a target to those who want to be able to find a 'spokesman' for the MRM, or an Official MRA position. It is a function of those MRAs who decided to congregate there, and not AVfM itself.

Inclusive of all: women, men, straight and gay, trans, white, black are actively involved (as opposed to predominant hetero white of the 1st wave);

Some may view this extreme dilution of the message as a bad thing. And while I myself have had this attitude falsely imposed on me, I don't necessarily agree. I think added perspectives are valuable. But the MRM as a WHOLE agreeing with the stance at AVfM? I sincerely doubt it unless you refuse to accept MGTOWs and such as being legit members of the movement. It is partially this excisement of 'unbelievers' that I object to there.

Strictly anti violence (as opposed to occasional violence tolerance of 1st wave)

AVfM certainly is anti-violence, but again, I see no evidence this is Universal to the movement, or even sweepin' the Nation.

Anti-domination of MRM by traditionalism (which dominated 1st wave);

I categorically deny this to be the case, at any time in the past. We ARE more successful at combatting the stereotype now though.

Anti-domination by partisan politics (1st wave was dominated by right wing sentiment);

If that read 'Party Politics', I would agree.

Inclusive of people of all faiths while having zero tolerance for proselytizers (1st wave had slight dominance by Western religion);

Agreed.

Are generally anti-feminist, anti-gynocentrism, and anti-misandry (like first wave) and are broadly oriented to human rights principles;

So...the same then.

Are more committed to building bridges between the MRM and the general community (unlike 1st wave);

Again, the strategy employed by AVfM is not the same thing as the strategy employed by the Mens Movement in general. I could even take issue that this is the case, or that AVfM is particularly proactive in this specific regard, but it CAN be said AVfM is great at drawing attention to where it needs to go.

Again, not a dig at effectiveness or anything, just a dig at the idea that AVfM is a snowflake here.

Have elaborated a more thorough socio-political history of misandry and gynocentrism (unlike the patchy attempts of 1st wave);

This organic building of knowledge has no 'waves', and happens when a bunch of people keep talking about stuff. It is also diffuse among the whole Manosphere...even those people that AVfM disagrees with...like Game theory, for example.

Have developed a more sophisticated discourse about sexual/psychological/social/political issues to inform the basis of the MRM (more than 1st wave)

Again, this is an organic collection of knowledge, a good portion of which originated from websites that AVfM is openly derisive of.

.....

Now, look at the kneejerk response to criticism of AVFM on this thread, and tell me there's no hubris involved.

[–]typhonblue2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Kris W seems to want to exclude people from men's rights activism because... they're not straight white men?

That's the narrative being contended. Of course, you could also read it as supportive of individual gay men, but critical of the 'Gay Community'...which is something guys like BR Merrick do on the regular.

Or, and this is a weird concept at AVfM these days...you could actually listen to what he is sayying...:

We are not universally inclusive, but fair towards. If someone is useful, regardless of their gender, race or creed, they will be heard. MRM is about Men’s Rights, not homosexual rights, not transgendered/intersex/whatever rights.

Homosexual/Transexual/Women activists and organizations have never helped men’s rights, and very much to the contrary, they have aided in our persecution and aligned themselves with the feminist hate movement FOR OVER A CENTURY! Either through direct assistance or refusal to acknowledge the problem.

If an individual homosexual/transsexual has something that is worth saying then it is worth hearing, but we are not going to carry water for groups that have spent the last 30+ years aiding and abetting the persecution and oppresment we face.

What an intolerant asshole huh?

The whole thread reeks of politically correct intolerance, fuck that, the thread DEFINES PC intolerance. No one there has argued against his views, they just call him an asshole, repeatedly.

YOU might want to associate with that...I sure the fuck don't.

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Then... I dunno, he's just repeating what Tawil wrote? Then why the offence? Why call it crypto marxist feminist?

Because I didn't see Tawil arguing that the MRM should adopt the issues of the gay or trans or whatever movements, only that it be inclusive of men who are gay or trans or whatever because they're men.

Also this:

The MRM didn’t get anywhere by being nice, we got to where we are in space and time, with feminism against the wall, by being ruthless, aggressive and fair(with just a dash of reason).

He's talking to the people who took the fight right to feminists and talking like he was part of that. As far as I know, he wasn't. Nor was he part of the strategy that instigated the fight. (I know, because I was part of planning that strategy.) I can see how people who did actually take the fight to the feminists would find this annoying.

Personally I walk away from nonsense like this, but I sympathize with those who go cross-eyed and froth at the mouth a bit.

[–]typhonblue2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A WTF reaction from the team that actually won to some jackass walking in off the street a. telling them what the strategy was that won the game b. in a way that makes it seem the people who implemented the damn strategy don't understand it but jackass does is understandable.

Oh Really? Here's Dr F's response:

his has got to be the most astoundingly stupid post I have read in a long long time.

You have managed to compact homophobia, political trumpeteering, religious bolstering, paranoid delusion and ageist bigotry in one giant stupid bolus of pig shit.

It’s dumb, dishonest and nasty and you sir will be chasing your tail on these assertions in tighter and tighter concentric circles to the point where your fat head goes right up your greasy bumhole.

Get smarter and educate yourself you silly fuck. So far you have demonstrated yourself to be useless burst of arse spray on a thread where smarter people than you will ever be, are seeing the piece here as the seminal expression it is.

Holy crap you’re stupid. I mean really stupid, and when I was half your age I was already twice as smart as “refreshing young hip guys” like you. Can’t you see that you are proving Tawil, the author here, that the first wave was homophobic and the second wave being smarter more compassionate and accepting?

You are being a billboard for the first wave, the very thing this piece is not. No wonder your BS meter went off. It went off because you are the antithesis of the second wave and good sense looks like slime to you. You floor me with worshipping your insightful young self. You don’t even have the insight to grasp the concept that you don’t even know what you don’t know.

One more vicious anti-brain-dishonest-anti-humanitarian post like this and you are out you useless scrape of Petri-dish fur.

You see anything BUT condemnation for not toeing the PC line there typhon? Cause I sure as fuck don't.

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your full of it. Ask Elam himself who went to bat for him when many in the MRM on his own website didn't trust him because of his race/ethnicity. I remember clearly that even his supporters refused to come out and help him when a few racists went after him because he is Jewish. What your writing is nothing more then lies and a hit piece.

You might as well call me Jonny Appleseed. Seriously, look up who spent the last 6 years talking about traditionalism, WKKK, links between feminism and white supremacy(feminism being the continuation of white supremacy), Mother of the Republic Women's Rights movement that fought for the right to be SAHM's.

I was offended by tawils message in of itself. I called it marxist feminist garbage because that is what it is. His statement read like many feminists/leftist "lets bash men" statements. It was disrespectful and insulting.

It is like saying "wow, this golf course is so much better now that women are allowed in, not as many smelly men, bible thumpers or racist white people". The wording may have been softer but the meaning was the same damn thing.

Plus such self reflection should be done 50-100 years from. It is in bad form and the definition of a circle jerk to engage in such stupidity.

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Soooo... it's PC now to want to be "inclusive" of gay, trans and non-white men? (Not take on their issues, just allow them to be part of the movement.)

You know very well that Kris W pointed out that gay men, speaking as men, have ALWAYS been welcome in the MRM...and they have, I know, I was one of the guys doing the welcoming. I ALSO know that AVfM gained it's gay readership LONG BEFORE 'taking on gay issues' became a thing in the MRM. And as Kris W (reasonably) states later in the thread, this might be BECAUSE 'Gay Community' shit doesn't agree with all Gay men...sort of like Political Correctness in Society doesn't agree with all men. His argument amounted to 'Gay rights are being defended by Gay activist organizations already, organizations that - by the way - have attacked us consistently as feminist allies for decades. Gay men are welcome, Gay Issues are not'.

So...what's unreasonable there? DO we REALLY 'have to' fight for gay issues TOO typhon? Is that the price of acceptance in the club now?

Can we force these fucks to support Traditionalists equally vehemently, or is THAT kind of 'exclusivity' OK? See where I'm going?

PEE CEE.

Dr. F is very... flavourful, that's his style. However if Kris wasn't saying that he wanted gay, trans, black men out of his movement, than what was he saying by calling Tawil's call for inclusiveness towards these groups "crypto feminist marxism"?

Hmmm, maybe he was noticing the intolerance for anything but an atheist, 'inclusive' viewpoint, saw the contempt for 'religious conservatives' trumpeted about a million times on that site, and seeing it for what it IS...the exact same rhetoric Radical Feminists use, the exact same MECHANISMS used to control 'supporters'...man, I can't believe I even have to explain this to you....

His PS could have been written after the fact, btw.

Yeah, cause that makes a world of difference.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

He's talking to the people who took the fight right to feminists and talking like he was part of that. As far as I know, he wasn't. Nor was he part of the strategy that instigated the fight. (I know, because I was part of planning that strategy.) I can see how people who did actually take the fight to the feminists would find this annoying.

Well, speaking as one of those very same MRAs that took the fight to the feminists, I can tell you he got it exactly right, whether he was there or not.

And a lot of those guys 'offended' by this weren't around then either...Hell, Dr F wasn't even there for most of it.

Personally I walk away from nonsense like this, but I sympathize with those who go cross-eyed and froth at the mouth a bit.

I'm sorta unclear what you're talking about here, but I can understand not wanting to find shit to be upset about. I'd rather not get into this anymore either really, since that thread has convinced me the place is a lost cause.

Of course, the guys at AVfM can keep telling themselves they're 'correct' til they're blue in the face...they're still gonna bleed support like a stuck pig.

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your a coward then. I remember the internet when, heck you still hide behind anonymous names. Kris W, is actually an abbreviated version of my legal name.

My yahoo account and other accounts link directly to my real life identity. I talk the MRM talk in my day to day life. I don't leave flyers hanging or act all smoke and daggery.

I went toe to toe against radical feminsits across the mainstream internet making it safe for wittle people like you while Elam was still sucking up to feminists and conservatives at men's Daily News(or whatever it was called back then). Seriously, I wonder how much of my radical stupidity is still on the net under nighthawk US, Kris W, Kris, KW, then again I create.

Look at agent orange. you feminists, err fake MRA at a voice for men, had a golden egg and only used it to increase your cred within the MRM. If that doesn't scream fake then I don't know what will.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Kris W here-

granted I screwed up in what I meant because I was tired and slightly angry, but the thing that put Elam on my perpetual shit list is because they didn't read what I wrote.

I clearly said one of the best things about the MRM is that anyone was welcome and invited to give ideas. I jues said that it was stupid to carry water for social movements that are aligned with the feminist hate movement. Why should we help gay rights activists when many gay rights activists in Hollywood helped feminists promote social misandry?

That was enough for the gay mafia that is trying to take over the MRM to try and crucify me. I am not going to justify anything, but I spent years trying to get African American men and other American men into the MRM. Elam just used a moment of illiteracy to try and attack me because he is nothing more then a copycat.

Most of the ideas he advances on his websites he stole from me. Seriously. Lookup Kris(after I took a break another Kris popped in so I started going by Kris W alot), Kris W, Nighthawk US, KW, all me.

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No worries man, this sort of thing has happened to me, Angry Harry, RockingMrE, and all sorts of long time MRAs. Paul has had his head swelled up beyond reason, and he's surrounded himself with sycophants that feed bullshit in his ear...

I had Typhonblue try and justify the actions of the PC Mafia at AVfM, and couldn't when all I did was simply isolate your post, and then show the immediate responses from the Editorial Staff there.

Don't worry though man, I think there's another 'group' site in the offing that will provide a home for MRAs to gather that will likely be a LOT less 'PC' than AVfM.

Frankly, Paul used to enjoy my highest regard. I used to trust him implicitly.

And after ONE single post DrF didn't agree with, I was suddenly persona non grata there.

5 years of working hard to support AVfM was utterly fuckin betrayed by the whole 'staff' there, and in my case it was exactly the same thing...I said something that 'could be used against us' (ie, not PC enough), and didn't come out in support of the Female contributors WELL ENOUGH for their liking.

Paul, Dr F, Typhonblue, GWW, and the rest better fucking hope AVfM comes out on top. Because if they bleed support (like I know they will), and continue to fuck off literally ALL of the 'glitterati' of the MRM, well, not fucking one of them will have a place in this movement after that.

Personally, if I am ever asked to characterize that site, I will wholeheartedly endorse the 'traitorous 5th column shitheads' view of the site.

As an aside, while I am tempted to do everything I can to take that pompous asshole down, he's doing good work, and I can't in good conscience stop him.

But I think the turn AVfM has taken will not only ostracise nearly every MRA not wearing skinny jeans, it will ultimately set Mens Rights back years.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link