Finding Rational Arguments against TRP?

alexvcr · 2014-09-27T03:33:21+00:00

My main concern would be that 95%+ of people who I've seen implementing something like TRP come off as unlikable and unhappy assholes. They like to tell themselves that they've "cracked the code". But they're really just aggressively pursuing undesired women with their new-found fake confidence. And they live just as much in denial as the betas they like to make fun of.

In short: Theory and implementation are not the same.

Red_Shirt_Blue_Pants · 2014-09-27T03:13:11+00:00

Yea. Mostly pertains to the assholes who refuse to leave anger phase.

Occams_Shiv · 2014-09-27T06:55:53+00:00

Probably the best argument against the red pill would be classical feminism, stripped of it's man-hating, victim-status-seeking, rape-fantasy-indulging bullshit. I imagine it would sound something like this:

Evolutionary history has created in humans a species of remarkable complexity and capability. It is split into two genders, which, as in all other animals, have unique traits, and so have traditionally performed different but overlapping rolls. However, evolution is nothing if not efficient, and so even though there are differences between the genders in physical form and behavior, these differences are few and subtle, and are focused around the reproductive organs and the behaviors associated with reproduction. Men and women are more alike than they are different. This is a pattern we see in all living things. A male tree is very similar to a female tree, and a male horse is similar to a female horse.

This condition has 2 utilities. The first is that it conserves genetic bandwidth. The second is that there is a high degree of redundancy among the parents of a human child. A father is capable raising a child if the mother dies, (in childbirth let's say) and the mother is fully capable of raising the child alone in the event of the father's death. (In battle, or through disease for example.)

Remember that in evolutionary terms, securing the survival and eventual sexual reproduction of our offspring is our only reason for being.

The basic similarity between men and women is proven every day by women in creative and demanding fields. Women, as men's mirror, posses brains and cognitive abilities that are sometimes exceptional. Indeed, they would not be able to give birth to and raise exceptional male children unless this was true.

So given that many women possess such potential, is it not wrong to relegate them to a life of cooking, cleaning, and raising very young children?

So even if the female population is not optimized for male-ish work, that doesn't mean an individual woman can not contribute to the greater good through such work. Is it just to deny her the opportunity because of her sex?

This is not only cruelly under-stimulating and unrewarding for her, it wastes her potential to do and contribute great things.

Red Pill largely ignores the potential of women outside the reproductive areas of behavior.

(This is largely an intellectual exercise is response to OP's request, but I really do hold opinions similar to this, just with less of a sense of social justice.)

SgtTRP · 2014-09-27T03:26:14+00:00

As you can clearly see in this post, a man actually renounced TRP.

I can clearly see he was never TRP. So I don't take him seriously.

Have you guys ever found a logical and coherent argument, and free of shaming, against RP principles?

No. Neither did I try.

Let's not confuse advocating for Men's Rights and advertising TRP. The former is a good thing for men and society at large. The latter is an exercise in futility. Within this sub, we don't need to convince people, we just need to discuss things as they are. Outside of this sub there is no point to discuss TRP. They're still in the matrix and you need to accept that.

The reason I'm talking about this is because I've considered putting all my arguments supporting TRP in there, so I can wait for someone intelligent to challenge me (helps me question my beliefs/opinions).

You think NAWALT? Fine, let's discuss. Share your logical and scientific argument against AWALT with us. It's all good. But don't waste your time trying to fix stupid people. Put your arguments supporting TRP in there; someone intelligent will throw logical fallacy after logical fallacy until you give feeling like crap. I guarantee it.

I am not saying you think NAWALT. I am saying that TRP is your place, you home. This other sub, CMV (whatever the fuck it is) is basically... well... Internet.

iluminatiNYC · 2014-09-27T06:15:35+00:00

The best critiques about the Red Pill haven't been that it's wrong as much as it's overbroad. I think there is a tendency to take AWALT a bit too far. While I think the majority understand AWALT to refer to broad trends as opposed for a shot-by-shot called of a woman's behavior, there are men who think that because, say, women will try to get the best man possible that ALL women will go for THE best guy RIGHT THAT MOMENT in a particular way at a particular time. The Red Pill is less a guideline for how to live life as opposed to a statement of principles by which one can orient themselves in the world.

luxo42 · 2014-09-27T21:57:11+00:00

•Not a single debator brings scientific evidence to the table in order to "refute" TRP

I have had the opposite problem. I can't find a Red Pillar to talk science and logic with me. It was my understanding that TRP purposely takes liberties with the truth in order to instill a certain mindset that is pragmatic rather than strictly accurate. Perhaps we should have a discussion?

To start, I do not believe that TRP's 80/20 model is scientifically supported. I realize that it is just an estimate, but I struggle to see how it is even roughly congruent with published statistics on sexual partner count.

80% of women are not having sex with only 20% of men or anything close to that. Here is the source for my statistics.

The report is on the sexual activities of 62,199 men and 61,865 women from 2006 to 2008 ages 15 to 44. The data is tabulated starting on page 17, but I will provide some of the total lifetime number of sexual partners below.

Percentage of women with no sexual partners, 11.3%
Percentage of women with 1 sexual partner, 22.2%
Percentage of women with 2 sexual partners, 10.7%
Percentage of women with 3-6 sexual partners, 31.6%
Percentage of women with 7-14 sexual partners, 16%
Percentage of women with 15+ sexual partners, 9.2%

Now looking at the men's statistics.

Percentage of men with no sexual partners, 11.4%
Percentage of men with 1 sexual partner, 15%
Percentage of men with 2 sexual partners, 7.6%
Percentage of men with 3-6 sexual partners, 26.5%
Percentage of men with 7-14 sexual partners, 18.1%
Percentage of men with 15+ sexual partners, 21.4%

When I brought this up to TRP, here is the response I received from an endorsed RedPill member.

And lastly, not that this is up to scientific rigour at all, but the 80-20 model (rather, rough approximation) is very easy to anectodally confirm. It's been my experience that when I've been able to speak in private conditions with someone, finding men who have only had 0-2 partners is pretty trivial, but the same is nearly impossible with women.

Lt_Muffintoes · 2014-09-27T11:23:46+00:00

IMO there are two reasons Red Pill attracts so much ire:

Delusion: Blue pillers and feminists cannot accept that their theory does not fit the data. Think of how angry the religious get when you try and debate them on the non-existence of their fantasy.

Growing pains: An important phase of healing is anger. Prematurely forgiving people who have hurt you is both unhealthy for you and diminishes the quality of forgiveness. Men have every right to be fucking furious; we are tax slaves for half our blood, our labour wasted on the undeserving leeches. We are tricked by our own mothers into believing a beta fairytale, then kicked to the curb the second we are of no use. We have our children stolen from us, and made to hate us. We build everything that makes the world a nice place, and are then spat upon by the harpies who inhabit the gilded thrones we create. Anger against those who have wronged you prevents you from being harmed by them again. This phase is what outsiders typically see, because it is the most outwardly emotional one, and wrongly assume that anger is the driving force behind TRP.

What I think Red Pill is, is understanding yourself, and the world around you, accepting it and adapting to it for your own best advantage.

As such, I believe it to be unassailable, in the same way that the scientific method is; Red Pill thinking is dynamic. If we find that some of what we say is incorrect, it's ok to change it. If your theory does not fit the data, then your theory is wrong and gnashing your teeth won't alter reality. Disagreeing with this is exactly the same as disagreeing with physics.

RedPillSafe · 2014-09-27T21:06:31+00:00

You mean there are reddits other than Red Pill?

(kidding)

Why even go there? It would like being a senior in high school and saying:

"Wow, I could go back to a freshman class and be soooooo smart."

Who cares?

[deleted] · 2014-09-28T00:09:39+00:00

I get the occasional response from someone outside TRP community. Mostly I ignore them. Occasionally I'll get a response that sounds like a well-reasoned bit of devil's advocatery but the thread usually devolves into name calling and shit testing...if you don't agree with me, you're not really a man....that kind of thing. I usually ignore these as well but occasionally someone will get so wound up that I end up feeding the troll just to see how vitriolic they will get.

I used to look on /r/thebluepill to see what's got them hot and bothered. But really they come off like retarded children across the board. They seem to be trying so hard to be witty...but they are so bad at it. From a debate standpoint it's the style over substance argument...but so poorly executed as to have no real style.

/r/purplepilldebate seems to be someone's legitimate attempt at facilitating exactly the kind of rational argument that OP is talking about. I don't know whether any rational arguments against RP actually make it onto that sub....every post seems like such an insurmountable wall of text. Although in their defense I did see at least one snarky reply to which a RP poster responded by saying, remove the snark and you've actually got it right.

That's the best I can do. Other than that I haven't seen any coherent arguments, free of logical fallacies and overt shaming, against TRP.

EDIT: Here's the list of fallacies on Wikipedia. Not that I plan on taking anyone on in a debate. Just seems like a good idea to be able to spot the bullshit when you encounter it.

Wargame4life · 2014-09-28T00:23:21+00:00

How does red pill explain girls falling in love and having huge crushes on gay best friends, it does happen (I've seen it with thy own eye).

These guys have zero interest in women as sexual objects and are just like "one of the girls" and supportive and not assertive or aggressive, and they actually fall full on in love with them, and it leads to trauma all round.

Also if you believe in red pill hook line and sinker, then any man who exceeds any attribute of yours is instantly your replacement.

I.e its very difficult to compare two senses of humour against each other but it is very easy to compare heights against Each other.

If you are "trading" using only your masculine "prowess" or steely resolve to get women to want to be with you, you live in a very unsecure future.

If all you offer is masculinity and agression/assertiveness you will always be replaced by a better offer (why wouldnt they) but if you bring to the table a sense of humour or insight or something that isn't as comparable or quantifiable you are harder to replace.

That is why red pill is AWALT, because they have narrowed their value to be more comparable/replaceable/contrastable.

intrcept · 2014-09-27T03:48:54+00:00

"Perhaps all women are like that, yet not all women are like that IN THE SAME WAY."

Title	Finding Rational Arguments against TRP?
Author	The_BitterTruth
Upvotes	4
Comments	57
Date	September 27, 2014 3:07 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2hl5cr/finding_rational_arguments_against_trp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/finding-rational-arguments-against-trp.21871 https://theredarchive.com/post/21871

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