What do you think about my perspective on how to improve men’s relationship with women, and to help men see women as equals?

So I made another post on here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFDS/comments/iaejx1/so_a_hvm_is_just_a_decent_good_person_thats_what/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

And I really appreciate the replies I got. So now I’m back to ask another question and see what y’all think.

I suppose I have to paint a bit of a picture of myself to get my point across. This post will probably be long lol. Sorry, I really am a rambler like a mofo.

As of today, as a man who wants a relationship with a high quality woman, as a man who feels comfortable around women, as a man who feels nothing but warm fuzzies and feelings of connection with women, I don’t know how I could ever get my former self to my current state of being without having the unique experiences with women that I’ve had.

In first grade I peed the bed. My mother sent me to school from then until 11th grade with unwashed clothes and I was the smelly kid. My life was hell blah blah blah. Zero friends, I was socially destroyed. In the past 10-15 years or so I went on a journey of social skill development. Today even though I suffer from anxiety and deeply held beliefs of worthlessness, I have become strong enough to be social despite the feelings I have. It never went away but now I can lift the Boulder I suppose.

Of course, these things didn’t help me when it came to dating sex and love.

Another factor that held me back, was that I always recognized from a young age that men abuse women. That women get cat called, stalked, touched against their will, raped and murdered.

I always wanted to show women who were around me that I was not an animal. That I had control of myself and that I would never hurt them. I suppose I did a great job honestly. I’ve had women put themselves into situations alone with them that I thought “wow you stupid silly girl if I was a bad person you would be totally screwed right now.”

I have not dated much at all. Besides being married, most of the sex I had with women was girls throwing themselves at me. I’m very lucky. I’m a big dude, I’m naturally super masculine and though I hate to admit it, I’m handsome too. I only know these things now though, because women taught me. My sister also helped me to see it, she has helped a lot even though I was very resistant at first.

So yea, it’s nice I got lucky. But I had a deep fear of causing women anxiety and fear. And this caused many girls to be creeped out by me. My shyness and anxiety would cause anxiety in some women. Me, having grown up the way I did, I couldn’t accept what attention I did have from girls. My feelings of worthlessness made me blind to it. And maybe that is a factor that is different from other men.

Anyways, if it wasn’t for my good looks, I probably would have been an incel. Due to the way I grew up I really believed I would be. Obviously long before the days of incel culture. I’m 34 now. When I was a teen I believed I would die a Virgin.

Despite having a few encounters here and there, my feelings of worthlessness really made it impossible. I had no ability to determine my own dating life. I had no ability to talk girls, I was just so absolutely terrified of hurting their feelings or causing them stress and anxiety. And that fear did cause some girls anxiety.

So what happened was I ended up getting a job with exclusively women. And that really changed everything for me. Now I’m just happy and confident and it’s all good.

If it was not for that experience I don’t think I could have ever changed. Although I had spent tons of money on dating coaches (Marni the wing girl was like $300) I read articles and watched YouTube videos and I read books. I even read “the rational male” and lots of red pill ideology. I learned about pickup artists and all that too. But at the end of the day those things were immoral to me.

Nothing helped. I still felt terrible around women. I could not be myself. I was incapable of expressing myself as I truly am. And I was utterly broken.

Even now as I look back, i can’t imagine a way that I could have changed without having worked with all those women, without them helping me both inadvertently and on purpose.

I know other men suffer from similar problems as me. Many of us are lost. We don’t know what to do. Sure, you can self improve all day and I was doing that. But self improvement never helped me with finding dates. Self improvement didn’t do anything for me at all. And so I became even more depressed and went into a dark depression and I’m still suffering the affects of that.

The only thing that helped me was literally being surrounded by women for 2 years. Seeing women be girls in their natural habitat lol. Seeing how they act and what they talked about. It taught me that I actually was attractive to women. It taught me that many men are attractive to women. It taught me to love myself and to stop believing in things like women only want money, huge penises and six pack abs. I saw who women truly were at the end of the day. And unlike the red pill, who believes they truly see women as they are, which incites feelings of anger and hate, I felt liberated. I felt freed of my anxiety and fear and self loathing. To a degree, I suppose. Like I still have it but it’s like I don’t believe it or something I don’t know. I’m still learning about how my mind works and I introspect a lot and am more connected to the way I feel than before.

I’ve seen in this sub that y’all often say that men do not wish to change. That men do not wish to work and to improve themselves. I wanted all of those things but I didn’t know how to do it. And I think many men do not know how to do it. Sure maybe some don’t want to change I suppose. But I think every man wishes to be in the current mental state I am when dealing with women. If only they knew.

If I were to go back in time, to help myself at a younger age, I can’t think of anything that would have helped me. I was lost and utterly incapable of understanding women and how they feel or what they want in men or how they see men. It was absolutely impossible. No amount of female advice, male advice or other could have helped me. Like I said, I consumed ridiculous amounts of dating advice and none of it helped me whatsoever.

So I am forced to conclude that men and women are too disconnected. That the advice I would give to a man who struggles with dating and love, is to simply make women his friends.

I was terrified to make the women I worked with my friends at first. For whatever reason, I deeply believed that being friends with any woman was an automatic disqualification from potential love, dates, sex, whatever. That if I became friends with a woman that I liked or any woman in general, they would see me as gay or non dateable, non relationship material.

They helped me get over that of course. Many of my female friends flirt with me constantly. They try to hook me up with their friends. They try to get me to talk to girls. They would point out to me every girl who was checking me out or who seemed to like me and would push me to talk to them.

I think a lot of men are truly lost like I was. Not all of them, but certainly a good amount.

I think men need to realize that women are good for us and help us. Help us to see who you are and to feel confident in ourself and to not be so afraid and not feel so much anxiety so on.

When I meet a girl, it’s just positive vibrations and smiles all around. I love meeting women, it’s just magical. I know every man wishes he could experience this as I do. Women treat me so well, I swear it’s the most amazing feeling. Women just beam positivity and love toward me, I love meeting women it makes me feel so fking good.

So when I give advice to guys on dating. I tell them to make women their friends. Because women will help them to overcome those problems, and then they will be able to enter the dating world on their own terms. They will realize what self improvement they need, they will feel more connected and more understanding of women and less fear and anxiety. And for me that was the root of it all.

I tell guys to make friends with women and ask them for help. They will help happily help you. Women love to see a good man go to someone. Women want to see women dating and loving a good man and women want to help men be good for women and themselves. It benefits everyone really.

Maybe im just crazy. For some reason it’s hard to even post this. I know I will be judged by losers on reddit who look through my post history and try to find reasons to hate on me. Because I often disagree with the beliefs people have. And attacking someone for having a history of being shy around women is a very popular course of action. But I’ve definitely gotten messages from guys or replies to my comments where guys tell me that I really helped them.

I have asked this question before, and I was told my advice was bad. That women don’t want a man who only wants to be friends, and that it does not teach the man to flirt or to sexually escalate. But that’s precisely why I tell men to be friends with women. Because learning that stuff seemed to come naturally to me once I had shed my anxiety and fear. Escalating sexually, being dominant in that sense, it came easily. Because I understand women on some deeper level than I ever did before. I know how you want to be treated. I know you want to be able to trust me. I know that you want me to escalate but always be aware of your feelings. And that at any time you can feel free to tell me I’m going to fast, and I will always respect you for it. And that had only resulted in zero resistance to be honest. They know I won’t hurt them on some level that I don’t even understand.

Well that’s my ramble. A lot of guys are lost as hell. They need to embrace women. Make friends, learn to see them as they are and see you as equals. And all the dates sex and love just comes flowing like a river.

Honestly sometimes it’s too much. I still have social anxiety and I get a bit too much attention lol. But it’s well worth it!

Hoping I don’t get judged too badly lol.

[–]burpleseaurchin 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]kaazssszMALE POSTER[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn’t say that I realized women are also humans. I would say I shed the expectation and belief that my value as a human being was utterly dependent on how many women I could have sex with. And if I wasn’t having sex, that meant that I was sub human. Just look at incels. We all ridicule them. You can say they are bad people. But we all love the fact that incels are not having sex. Your value as a man is determined by how much sex you have and if you’re not getting any, we don’t like you, we use that as reasoning why you aren’t having sex. You’re just scum so that’s the natural result of being subhuman is a lack of sex. Women don’t have that same stigma. If a woman doesn’t have sex it says absolutely nothing about her.

The only thing that made it possible for me to realize that my value as a human being was not based in how much sex I have with women, was the realization that women valued and were attracted to all kinds of men. That the reason I was chronically alone was not because I was a worthless human being as dictated by society. But that the expectation of being some kind of “ladies man” was what was causing me to feel extreme fear and anxiety around women. And that extreme fear and anxiety was ruining my ability to be myself. Which was in turn ruining my ability to get a date.

That combined with my fear of making women uncomfortable or feel fear around me made it impossible for me to be comfortable. It made it impossible for me to be myself around a woman. I couldn’t let go of the belief that I must have sex or else I’m a piece of shit. I simultaneously could not feel like because I wasn’t having sex, that must mean that I am creepy or bad or gross to women. That I automatically made them uncomfortable by nature of me basically being a “beta male.”

Seeing women go crazy over guys over and over and over really just dispelled the idea that women saw me as either mr alpha male or mr beta male. And I was instantly judged and discarded. And then men would also see that and judge me and discard me. But men did. I was called faggot and beta and “can’t get no pussy ass maw fucka” my whole life. Maybe some women did view me like that but I don’t know. Girls would approach me in bars and clubs expecting me to be flirtatious, but when they saw I was full of fear their look of interest would turn into disappointment and they would just turn and walk away. One time a girl approached me in a club, and after trying to talk to me for a minute or so, she got mad and screamed in my face “what are you fucking gay!?”

So I don’t really know even now how women really saw my former self. I’m not sure how women see a guy who is shy and scared and full of anxiety. But I realized obviously that those feelings were unfounded. I didn’t need to feel like that. I was a man and men are attractive to women. It was only myself that was holding me back, and all I had to do was let go of the fear and anxiety and I would be able to be myself. And that when I was able to actually be myself, women could like me and be interested in me. It wasn’t their fault that society and men continued to reinforce the idea that my value is based in how much pussy I get. That wasn’t their fault at all.

Something that helped me see that was some creepy girls would start to flirt with me too. But these girls were creepy. They were just like me lol. Nothing wrong with the girls, but they would just give me this strange feeling and I didn’t want to be around them. That’s just the result of being a social outcast. People feel weird around people like that. People reject people like that. It isn’t based on your sex or gender.

As far as your comment on emotional work, they didn’t have to do anything for me. I learned a lot simply seeing them act naturally.

But they all liked me and they all had a desire to see me succeed with women. I know because I overheard them talking about me when they thought I wouldn’t know. They recognized me as a truly good man and they wanted me to get over my anxiety and fear and shyness. They saw other girls like me from afar and pushed me to flirt and be talkative. They wanted to see me go to a woman. They didn’t do any “emotional” work. They didn’t sit me down and council me. They just acted naturally and as they saw me improving they pushed me because they wanted to see some lucky girl be my girlfriend. They would tell me to “fuck bitches get money.” They would tell me to be a player. I thought those kinds of mentalities were disgusting to women. But apparently it’s OK if you’re me. I don’t know, I don’t know how to interpret that. But I routinely heard them be angry about those kinds of men. Those player types who manipulate them and treat them like shit. But of course they still dated them so there’s that too. I can’t say I understand all of that. But in my head they only have 3 choices. Date the asshole player, date a shy guy, or date a weirdo who is pretending to be an asshole player but fails and looks like an idiot. Fourth option is an actual good man who is also not afraid of women, but has confidence is able to be himself. I’m sure lots of shy guys are good men but women simply cannot date shy guys because the shy dude is often impossible to interact with. I know that now after dealing with girls like that. Like it’s just off putting.

I don’t know if you can apply my experience to other men, I really don’t. I’ve never been a part of the world of men besides the negative part, where I was bullied my whole life for being a guy who can’t get girls. I grew up hating men. I grew up fighting, from 5th grade where I had my first fight when bullies followed me into the bathroom to try and beat me up. Until 11th grade I had my last fight before I moved to a new state. I was bullied for being that beta male piece of shit. And all that shit made me feel like a worthless sack of shit no woman would ever want. Even when girls did throw themselves at me I couldn’t see it. My beliefs were just too deep.

So yea I don’t care if you hate men or want to interpret everything I say as some kind of genetic basis for why men are automatically scum. We’re just born pieces of shit who treat women like absolute fucking garbage. That’s fine I don’t mind if you believe that. But I’ve never been like that. Half of my fear was out of respect of women and a desire to show them I was not driven by my uncontrollable sexual desire. That I was not a potential rapist and such.

I really can’t comment on the lives of other men. I beat up too many dudes to relate to other men. Sorry.

Edit: All of that said, I know a lot of men are angry. We all seem to believe in this alpha male beta male shit. We believe all women only want the tippy top alpha male, and we resent that. Or at least that’s my perspective. Maybe I’m wrong. But I see the way to get over that is to recognize the expectation that society has put on you around sex, and to actively work on changing that perspective by trying to be friends with women, by trying to understand who women really are. To recognize that it may be possible that your deeply held beliefs could be wrong, and to actively seek out a path to prove yourself wrong, by working on accepting women as they are and making them your friends. I tell guys to forget about dates and sex. I tell them to forget about it completely. And when one does as I suggested, and they make women their friends, they will be able to see that all women want is for a man to be himself. His truest self. Not the self that is riddled with society’s stupid expectations and beliefs.

It’s not women’s job to fix men. It’s our own selves whi need to do the work. But we can’t do it if we push women away because we believe in this animal gorilla alpha male beta male bullshit.

[–]shortywannarock 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s great that you not only see the progress you’ve made, but realize how broken and toxic your feelings towards women were before these life changing events. The crux of your mindset shift was being able to empathize with real women and not feminine caricatures created by angry misogynistic men. Not every man has access to these experiences, and it would be silly to expect every man/boy to find a similar workplace situation.

The best advice I can offer in order to build empathy is to read. Read books that were written by women and for women. Read the regency classics like Austen and Brontë, read the Victorian works like Shelly and Alcott, and of course the leaders of the Women’s Suffrage movement, and modern works as well.

If you’re worried about attention span then there’s always audiobooks, but there really is no substitute to books. Shows and movies are often male dominated behind the scenes even if the characters are female. Obviously all of these suggestions are incredibly Eurocentric, but that’s all I could come up with off the top of my head— and there are many wonderful stories (kite runner for example) written by women from other parts of the world with unique and important perspectives on womanhood.

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