Conversation plowing and engaging fluff

So I have this question that maybe you guys can help me with.

I've noticed that some girls don't try to make the conversation, while other try so hard to keep it alive. Now let me explain.

Usually, when I open the average cute girl, when she sees I'm trying to make the conversation, she will try her best to make the conversation too. That's what I would consider good game from me or that she is interested. UP TO NOW.

Usually also, when I open your average hottie, when she sees I'm trying to make the conversation, half of the time she won't give me shit. That's what I would consider bad game from me or that she is NOT interested, next. UP TO NOW.

NOW, I'm beggining to think that my paradigm is just plain wrong. That, all along, all those girls, hottie or average cutie, were into me. And I just gave up too early when they didn't give me what I would consider "enough investment".

To give an example of my usual bad scenario :

- Oy hottie, generic boring conversation opener

- Oh hi

- Engaging joke

- Close to no reaction from her

- Haha cool, so blablablabla ?

- Close to no reaction from her

- Oh, alright. End of interaction

I so often interpret this lack of reaction as a blowout. Im well aware when a girl freaks out or back down when I overdo. But them just poker-facing me kills me. I have no idea how to calibrate on that.

Now there's my question, as a TL;DR :Do I stop too early on those hot girls ? Id usually drop it after trying to engage twice if she doesn't start investing. What usually happens is that when I open hot girls they just stare at me. How to get that hook point that usually comes so fast with less attractive girls.

Is it really necessary to "game the wall" all night as I see other guys do to get into hot girls pants ?

I really really wish to find a solution because running around the club looking for DTF girls gets boring fast. Id like to consistently get hotties noww

[–]sink_flower432 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm a guy and I like to seduce women, just letting you know I'm not some feminist or white knight or whatever so please don't assume that just because I am sharing my judgements and experience of you.
When I read your post I feel annoyed and disgusted. I imagine you are oblivious to how you appear to others and oblivious to your objectification of women and oblivious to the fact that you probably have deeper problems that you're trying to cover by "getting the hotties."

Your whole attitude reads like this:

"Women are objects for my dick, their personality is not important, who gives a fuck about what they think or feel, I'm in this to get myself off, how do I use manipulative techniques and behaviours to satisfy my needs?"

I hope my post brings a smudge of awareness in you and I encourage you to stay away from pickup for a while and seek therapy until you develop some empathy for women, then learn seduction from there. Your results will probably improve too when you start seeing women as allies rather than objects to conquest.

[–]ntipz011 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]sink_flower432 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

See, I have plenty of empathy.

Maybe you do. But perhaps it's buried underneath your way of communicating that empathy to the public or buried underneath your desire for pleasure or validation. From the way you wrote about women in your original post, to me it sounds like you have little to no empathy. Maybe you're different in person but the way you communicate online sounds objectifying. I wouldn't personally want to give you seduction advice if I believe you thought of women as objects, I would first recommend you go to therapy which is why I recommend you to do so. Not as an insult to make that clear, as a genuine desire to make you a better person. I myself have been to therapy and have seen great improvements in my own empathy levels. I found when I started in pickup my empathy was lacking quite a bit as well for women and all I thought about was getting laid. I can see you want to sort out an important part of your life and I encourage you to interact with girls, but I also encourage you to let go of the objectifying and see women as your friends, a lot of women love sex and relationships and so even the ones you have sex with, you don't need to objectify them, because they are doing sex with you not "because of you" or "for you" or "as a result of your game" .. with you.

But when you are learning a skill you have to be practical and logical.

Yeah a lot of skills you need to be practical and sometimes even logical. For women you don't need to be logical. Let me give you an example .. riding a bike doesn't mean I need to analyse, and be logical. I just get on the bike and fall several times until I ride. Women are a similar skill. There is no need to analyse or objectify women, you simply need to interact with them many times over with an intention to seduce, just like you may get on your bike many times with an intention to ride it, and eventually things click. Obviously for guys who enter seduction and pua have had struggle getting the click part to work and so they believe they need to learn a whole new pua language and break everything down into techniques and skills and objectify women in order to "get results" but it's the wrong paradigm and even if it works in getting you laid, you won't feel good about it. The difference between these analogies btw is the bicycle is an object for your desire to ride, while a woman is not just an object for your pleasure she is also a person with her own intentions, thoughts and feelings, and you don't wanna forget that.

If you knew a bit more about Game you'd know that women's feels and thoughts are a huge factor that cannot be ignored whatsoever.

I know plenty of game advocates empathy and awareness of the women and calibration etc. I also think a lot of pua coaches lack emotional empathy, but have trained themselves to harness cognitive empathy in order to again get their dick wet. There is a difference between both those empathies by the way search them up if you wanna know more about it. Guys like Mystery Method, Ross Jeffries, RsdTyler they all seem to come from a place of emptiness even if they talk a lot about "connection" and "respect" and "presence" and other important values, their language doesn't reflect a real care for the woman's experience. I mean look at the word "target", "set", "number", "lay", "approach", "rejection" all these words are about objectification and sound like a military system or videogame of some sort. Women aren't the enemies, and women aren't things to fuck and then move on, they're people just like you and me, and they share with us pleasure and fun times. When I read your post a lot of your language came off as objectifying to me:

when I open your average hottie

half of the time she won't give me shit.

when they didn't give me what I would consider "enough investment".

Oy hottie, generic boring conversation opener

- Engaging joke

- Haha cool, so blablablabla ?

- Oh, alright. End of interaction

Do I stop too early on those hot girls ?Id usually drop it after trying to engage twice if she doesn't start investing.

How to get that hook point that usually comes so fast with less attractive girls.Is it really necessary to "game the wall" all night as I see other guys do to get into hot girls pants ?

I really really wish to find a solution because running around the club looking for DTF girls gets boring fast. Id like to consistently get hotties noww

Most of what you said it's like you've forgotten completely about her experience and are only concerned with your own results. Do you see what I mean? It's all about you and your desires, her looks are to please your desires, her lack of conversation is a barrier to your results, even when you refer to her, you don't ever take a guess at what she's thinking or feeling when interacting with you. What do you think she felt in her body when you came up to her? How do you feel about that in your body? What do you think she was thinking when you came up to her? How do you feel about that? What do you think she felt when you laughed and continued talking after she gave you no reaction? Why did you continue to go on, for yours or her benefit? How do you feel about that?

I too encourage you to go out more and meet more girls, strive for better girlfriends (on a personnality and physical attractiveness standpoint)

Thank you. I will continue to do so.

and stop judging people on cold reddit posts. Cheers.

Hmm, this I will not do. I believe sharing judgements as long as I'm not attached to them and also willing to expand on my judgements and engage in a discussion about them is healthy and productive for everyone. Either you will learn something from my judgements and grow, or I will learn something from my how I came to my judgements and grow, or both of us will learn something from my judgements and grow, but there's hardly any room for growth if I kept that to myself and didn't share it and wasn't open for discussion with it.

Let me know your thoughts :)

[–]ntipz011 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe you do. But perhaps it's buried underneath your way of communicating that empathy to the public

I'm pretty sure that most people on this reddit don't care about how empathetic I am. Caring about other's time, I won't write more on my already too long post.

For women you don't need to be logical

Well I disagree, you do. Single example among a milion of them : if girls don't answer to you when you open them, maybe it's because your voice isn't loud enough. Practical problem and logical solution.

Yes there is also the possibility that her grandma just died and that she actually heard you and she doesn't wanna talk. But in this context, caring about it isn't going to help neither her nor you. And even so, if someone comes up with a question like this it's because it's a pattern that happens multiple times, which makes it more of a logical objective problem than a "what is she feeling" problem, because over multiple interactions this problem is objectively there while girls don't have life drama going on at all time.

There is no need to analyse or objectify women, you simply need to interact with them many times over with an intention to seduce

That's what natural people do. Because they started running after girls since they are 14. I started when I was 20, I have no time to waste taking my time. I'd like to add my brain and reflexion to the equation, not just throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks forever. Analyzing also elevates the skill ceiling, which is beneficial to you and the girl (better quality man getting better quality girls).

I mean look at the word "target"

They are just words. They are easy to understand. They don't have more meaning than that. It's logical, it's practical, it gets to the point. It doesn't mean that all those who use them objectify women.

women aren't things to fuck and then move on

If you have bad game, women will see you as a thing to fuck once and move on, too. It's not black or white. So better get good. I personnaly don't like ONS either. See, the girl I'm thinking about when writing this I actually met her a few times, I really think she is a cool and attractive person.

Most of what you said it's like you've forgotten completely about her experience

That is my whole point. That I don't know how they feel in those situations where they give me the poker face. As to discover it, I'm asking whether I should just plow through that poker face or that it means she isn't interested. But I doubt I will find anyone with enough experience on this reddit to answer my question anyway.

What do you think she felt in her body when you came up to her? How do you feel about that in your body? What do you think she was thinking when you came up to her? How do you feel about that? What do you think she felt when you laughed and continued talking after she gave you no reaction? Why did you continue to go on, for yours or her benefit? How do you feel about that?

Im going to answer every question just for the fun of it man.

She felt nothing.

I felt anxiety because she's impressively beautiful.

Pretty sure she was thinking nothing, at best "oh, someone is talking to me, sure".

I felt nothing about her feeling nothing.

I'm pretty sure she felt nothing when I laughed and continued talking (hence my whole original post)

I continued to go on to have a fun conversation and see whether or not she would be interested in mutually consented sex.

I felt bad about it because she wouldn't reengage the conversation, assuming she didn't like me (once again, hence my whole post).

I'm saying that because you completely misinterpret my point on most of what I say. And based on that you start assuming I'm this or that. While I'm pretty sure we both agree on the same principles.

[–]sink_flower432 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for replying. I want to address your response about the empathy mainly and put aside your points on logic even though I did read it.

That I don't know how they feel in those situations where they give me the poker face.

This is what I'm talking about! You just admitted yourself you lack empathy, because that's what empathy is.

She felt nothing.

I felt anxiety because she's impressively beautiful.

Pretty sure she was thinking nothing, at best "oh, someone is talking to me, sure".

I felt nothing about her feeling nothing.

I'm pretty sure she felt nothing when I laughed and continued talking (hence my whole original post)

I continued to go on to have a fun conversation and see whether or not she would be interested in mutually consented sex.

I noticed you imagined she felt nothing, most of the time ... "Nothingness" is not really a feeling, usually behind what you may interpret as nothingness is numbness, deadness, lethargy, fear, anger or something else. A girl appearing indifferent which is what you may interpret as "feeling nothing" is probably actually feeling something in order for her to act like that ... now see if you had a good amount of empathy you'd be able to read between the lines and perhaps ask her questions or interpret her body language so that you wouldn't be left with confusion and having to write up this post. So empathy is a great thing to have in order to understand other people including women.Logic may help you get a mechanical answer to these problems, but you'll be stuck on a hamster wheel constantly looking for more logical solutions whenever new confusing problems come up with girls. If you are empathic you will be able to interpret correctly in the moment and handle these types of interactions way better and do it in a way which respects her and yourself.Glad to see we agree on similar points, and I hope you take away my point of recommendation which is to learn about empathy, and my other recommendation would be to learn about emotions in general, try to learn more feeling words and be mindful of your own body sensations it will improve your ability to know yourself and then know others including women .. my guess is you can't read other girls emotions because you have trouble knowing all your own emotions too perhaps. Dig deeper when you say you feel nothing or someone else feels nothing, I don't think that's a primary emotion. Boredom is another example like nothing, usually behind boredom is anger for instance.

Title	Conversation plowing and engaging fluff
Author	ntipz011
Upvotes	3
Comments	5
Date	January 23, 2019 10:22 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/aj5c96/conversation_plowing_and_engaging_fluff/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/conversation-plowing-and-engaging-fluff.1286646 https://theredarchive.com/post/1286646

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