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"Why are men always expected to make the first move in sex and relationships?", interesting article about pickup from the point of view of a feminist.

venomousplatypus

November 29, 2010

32 upvotes

/r/seduction

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/148990

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Post Information

Title	"Why are men always expected to make the first move in sex and relationships?", interesting article about pickup from the point of view of a feminist.
Author	venomousplatypus
Upvotes	32
Comments	25
Date	November 29, 2010 8:09 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/edhtb/why_are_men_always_expected_to_make_the_first/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/why-are-men-always-expected-to-make-the-first-move.1313298 https://theredarchive.com/post/1313298

Comments

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

I grew up being taught not to play games or conform to gender stereotypes. I very recently gave up. Since so many guys seem to play games (as overwhelmingly demonstrated by the PUA community, but certainly not limited to it) I finally decided the only way I am going to get dates is to play along. And much to my horror, it works. I have gone on more dates in the past year, despite the fact that I have stopped asking guys out or (for the most part) initiating contact. And you know what, at first it sucked - I found it really disappointing that men really do seem to want a passive woman who will take their lead, someone who has to be chased... maybe not forever, but certainly in the first few dates. And I wonder how many of the men I have been interested in dating in the past would have actually ended up asking me out if I had just cooled my heels and not taken the initiative.

But as much as it sucks, I guess that's life right? It's hard to live in the real world if you want to stick to ideals. And I guess I must be a shitty feminist, because I finally laid down my principles on this one in favor of dating. I imagine a lot of guys trying to be PUAs could say the same. A lot of the stuff that gets thrown around here is pretty misogynistic, and I hope that not all of you have so little respect for women, I imagine a lot of you are just doing the same thing - learning how to play the game according to the rules instead of according to your own idealogical preferences.

edit - changed "all guys" to read "so many guys" because I would hate to be accused of making sweeping generalizations.

[–]thinkmac 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]thinkmac 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]2StandardDeviations 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I've been thinking about this since I read your question last night, and the scientist in me says there's no way to answer well... I know that there is honestly no way to objectively assess what changed or, more importantly, why. My active dating life had a large break between 2006 and now as I went through two serious relationships and one period where I was single and not dating at all. So the two sets being compared are from when i was in my early to mid twenties, and the last year, and there are of course going to be differences in the way I act (and the way men my age act) between then and now. And then the other challenge is that I have no way of knowing, of the men I have dated recently, would the one that I asked out have asked me out if I had not, and would the several that I did not ask out have gone out with me if I had instead asked them. So I have two compromised data sets.

Ok, so having set up my caveats and recognizing in advance that my anecdotal stories carry no real weight, I am happy to share anyway.

I like assertive men. I am myself a relatively assertive woman, and very intelligent, and I tend toward leadership roles at work and most of my social settings, but I am also a product of my culture and I like to be in the company of men who are more powerful than me, or at the least also very intelligent and assertive. (As a closet feminist, that was a hard realization to own up to, by the way). So the kind of men that I interact with generally have those characteristics as I either meet men online or at conferences or workshops - so there's some screening going on. You might be right that my initiation might lend itself to me dating more shy/passive guys, but since I don't typically date guys like that anyway I don't really have anything to go on there.

Since March I have been out with I think 7 or 8 guys and had two short relationships. Thinking back to when I was dating before, I would average maybe three guys I would date in a year, maybe one short relationship. I'm good looking, but not gorgeous, and I when I am out with friends I am not very approachable, both because of the dynamics of my social group and the places we hang out, so I don't often find myself in situations where any but the most assertive and interested guy would be able to approach me, though when I am alone at a bar in a hotel or at my local pub, I will usually end up at least having a conversation with the staff and the people around me.

I know that I can't be certain that the change is because I am not being so forward, but my sense is that has a lot to do with it. There's a certain look that a guy gets - like his eyes formerly said "yeah, I'm open to this" and then at the moment they change their mind it's like shutters closing. I used to see that look when I would ask a guy on a date after chatting for a while, or when asking him out again after what felt like a good first date, and this past year I've only seen it once - on the one guy that I straight up asked out again.

I also recently ran into a guy I used to date casually. He actually told me outright that at the time that we were dating he found me intimidating. I think he used the phrase "powerful sexuality." And the whole time he's telling me this, he's apologizing for breaking things off with me the way he did, and hinting he'd like to see me again, so I believe he was being complimentary.

Those are my two main stories that lead me to the conclusion I've drawn.

I should also probably clearly frame what I am not doing anymore. I will not ask a guy out the first time, or the second time (though I will say outright "I had a good time, we should do that again"). If I am interested I remain engaged in the conversation, either email or in person, but I try not to even hint. Of course when the guy finally asks (and sometimes it takes forever) I'll probably respond with a time that works and a suggested place... because I am still me, after all. And the other thing I won't do is initiate physical contact for a first kiss or any other first physical contact. I probably still do the whole arm touching thing when I am flirting, but I won't go in for a kiss. I try to be generally a bit more reserved sexually for the first couple dates at least too, though this isn't really my nature, and to be honest there's only been two instances that was even relevant so I am not sure that even counts...

Does that answer your question?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

interesting... re female executives and leadership - there was an interesting article in Harvard Business Review last month about a Microsoft manager who changed genders on the job - I wonder if you might find interesting some of the comments on the change in leadership style as he went from being male at work to being openly female gender identified.

I might have to think more about what you're saying. From my own personal experience, I know that I tend to lead in the absence of a stronger (or competent) leader, or if I am doing something I really care about. I'll usually co-ordinate choosing dishes and then order the food when dining family-style in a group, I'll also order for a friend if I'm out with just one person. I'll often choose the table when I enter a pub or any self-seating situation with a group... though I know in the latter example, particularly if I am on a date, I occasionally hesitate and see if the person I am with will give direction first. But do I think women never lead? Are incapable of leading? No.. no, I don't think I can agree with you.

edit: missing word

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I cannot even begin to imagine how difficult it must be for a feminist to balance their personal values and the traditional dating scene.

The farther down you go in the ladder of socially complicated the less you need things like feminism. I believe that modern feminism is mainly concerned with things like how things like gender expectations, privilege and disadvantage are built into the larger systems that govern our society. Very relevant when dealing with analyzing and affecting large organizations of people but less and less relevant when you get down to the level of individual interaction.

So my answer is that it's easy. If I meet a guy who is nice I spend time with him and if I meet a guy who's a dick I avoid him, much like I do with friends of either gender.

Now, I used to think that you were supposed to spend a lot of time worrying about and living feminist ideals but then I actually spent a few years very heavily immersing myself in the actual academic pursuit of feminist thought and I certainly don't think that anymore.

[–]darkhorse85 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]fishwish 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]fishwish 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lead ModeratorThrowawayPUA 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thinkmac -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Lead ModeratorThrowawayPUA 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link