I'm learning Swedish

The BiAka have a high predominance of the L1 genetic haplotype, which is believed to be the most divergent human dNA haplotype. It is believed that the modern human ancestor developed in the East Africa area, where the Efé (and other Mbuti) and the Hadzabe of Tanzania also exhibit the L1 haplotype. During a period of "interglacial optimum" weather, the Sahara became lush and green, allowing easy migration along its southern border. It is theorized that during this period, migration of early man occurred from the Eastern Congo basin to the Western Congo basin. The BiAka therefore represent some of the oldest existing modern humans. The Aka are carrying on a way of life that has likely remained unchanged since the earliest part of human existence.

[–]melb22 -4 points-3 points-2 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]melb22 -5 points-4 points-3 points 16 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But I DO want to be valued for my efforts to earn a wage. That's what I spend most of my time and energy doing. There are ways to tackle the divorce problem without men making themselves redundant as providers.

And we shouldn't undermine the paternal role either. Looking after the kids doesn't just mean doing the traditionally maternal things. There is also a paternal role of socialising the children for their future life outside the home.

Consider why divorce is often lower in middle and upper class families. It's much more difficult to successfully launch a child into such cultures. Women who have this aspiration know that it helps a great deal to have a husband in the family to role model the middle/upper class way of life for their children.

If all that men is good for is doing motherly type duties in the home, then our value in society doesn't rise, it falls. We lose a necessary and distinctive role within the family.

We need to continue to be better than the state at providing, we need to demonstrate our skill at being dads (not mums) and we need to stay more overtly masculine than immigrant men from non-Western cultures who haven't been subject to the samel level of demoralisation.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But I DO want to be valued for my efforts to earn a wage. That's what I spend most of my time and energy doing. There are ways to tackle the divorce problem without men making themselves redundant as providers.

Guess what, people's wives are providers too. You have to appreciate women for providing too, if you want to be appreciated. It's not that men aren't providers anymore, it's that BOTH men and women are providers. You're choosing to see that in a very stupid light. If anything, having two providers relieves financial pressure: it's not a problem. Men will still be men, and just as masculine, no matter how much money they make.

And we shouldn't undermine the paternal role either. Looking after the kids doesn't just mean doing the traditionally maternal things. There is also a paternal role of socialising the children for their future life outside the home.

because mothers don't socialize their children, only fathers can. The fact is that while men and women can act differently towards their children, men have to do "maternal" things and men have to do "paternal" things while raising their children, if a dichotomy of strictly maternal and paternal things actually exists. And sorry to burst your bubble, but the primary caregiver of a child (whoever spend the most time with it) gives it most of its socialization. That means the mom, the nanny, or the child's teachers. Not to say that a positive male role model doesn't go far.

If all that men is good for is doing motherly type duties in the home, then our value in society doesn't rise, it falls.

Nobody said that men were only good for that. Why is your thinking so binary? Rigid black and white thinking is what causes most of the problems of our society. Men are appreciated for doing their share of housework, childcare, and financial contributions. But they are also appreciated for a myriad of other things, otherwise all women would be lesbians.

We need to continue to be better than the state at providing, we need to demonstrate our skill at being dads (not mums) and we need to stay more overtly masculine than immigrant men from non-Western cultures who haven't been subject to the samel level of demoralisation.

and this is the paragraph that shows you are crazy. and racist. Earning money is not the be-all end all of masculinity. Being the primary caregiver of your child for a period of time does not emasculate someone. I am actually sad that you think that. Who are you to say that you are more manly than anyone else, when you obviously have no idea what masculinity is?

Consider why divorce is often lower in middle and upper class families. It's much more difficult to successfully launch a child into such cultures. Women who have this aspiration...

This paragraph is poorly articulated and i'm not sure what you're trying to say.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

All i'm saying is the definition of what is masculine is far broader than what most ppl give it credit for. And it is getting broader. New roles include the older "traditional" roles, they are just getting wider in addition. The more one argues for the old, super-narrow versions of masculinity, the more one perpetuates (and increase) today's male issues of inadequacy and alienation.

How can one brand a trait like being a role model, or being dedicated, or loving, etc etc etc. As being gendered? Being a good, responsible part of a family is not purely masculine or feminine: both genders in the partnership must have these traits. Each gender might do each of these things in a different or similar way. Why do ppl gotta be up in arms about things that are good being emasculating?

Men have always been very different from eachother and have different behaviours and traits. You can't create a binary dichotomy of things that are MANLY and things that aren't. Liking show tunes is not manly. What does disliking show tunes have to do with being a man? absolutely nothing. Liking/playing sports is manly. At least half of the guys I know don't watch or play sports. At least half the girls I know play sports. What does it have to do with being masculine? Nothing really. Most of what society posits and manly/non-manly is similar, complete bullshit.

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[–]essohbee 12 points13 points14 points 16 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Well.. the taxes pay for any and healthcare you need as well (except for dental, for some strange reason). In order for you to understand that article, you have to understand Swedish society. Money isn't the kind of status symbol it is in the US, and Swedish women put a lot higher premium on men who will do their half of the house work rather than men who are barely home and earn a lot of money.

Yes, we do rely a lot on the state. After all, why shouldn't we? We've paid a lot of money in taxes and in turn we relax, knowing that if shit hits the fan the state will have our backs. It's true that we take home a comparatively smaller chunk of our salary, but on the other hand: all public education is free (from elementary school all the way to a doctorate, if you're so inclined), any doctor's visit costs ~$30 and surgery costs ~$45 (both contributing to a pool that's capped at ~$110 / year), medicine is highly subsidized and capped at ~$230 / year. Obviously, I'm biased from growing up here, but to me, that kind of social safety net is worth a lot more than a high salary potential.

[–]melb22 -5 points-4 points-3 points 16 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

But essohbee your comment shows what is wrong in Sweden. The state takes your money, the money you earned, and then gets all the glory for having provided security. Here in Australia I still get to keep a fair portion of my salary, so I can pay those medical and other bills and so my wife looks to me to provide security. I'm the one who gets the positive response from my wife, not the state.

Yes, we do have problems in countries like Australia and the US with divorce laws etc - but those same problems exist just as much in Sweden.

So how is a Swedish man better off than me? He runs the same risk of divorce. He has to spend just as much time in paid work as me. He has to do more work at home as that's the way he makes himself useful to his wife. He gets little credit for his efforts to earn a wage, as it's the state which provides things for his wife with his taxes.

It's a worse deal. I think if Swedish men saw the way that I live they'd weep.

[–]essohbee 9 points10 points11 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, you have to understand that we come from rather different ideological viewpoints. My girlfriend does not look for me to provide for her, we both provide for each other. We work together to better our lives, and our relationship doesn't hinge on my being able to provide. We find meaning in other things, we share responsibility in making money, and we share responsibility with doing house work.

We pay our taxes proudly, knowing that our efforts help making sure that everyone has a safety net to fall back on. Conversely, it seems that you put your entire sense of self and self worth into being able to provide. What happens if you can't? What happens if you get sick, or unemployed? What happens if your wife gets sick? Would you really, truly want to be with someone who only stays with you because you provide security, or would you rather be in a mutually beneficial and equal relationship?

I know what I choose, and I doubt I'd feel any envy when compared to your life. I just want a salary that's high enough to let us get by, I'll give the rest to the state and let them worry how to budget it. I really, truly don't care who gets the "positive response", seriously, health care is way too important to me than to play some sort of "atta boy"-game with it.

On the flip side, since both husband and wife are expected to provide, and both are expected to take an active role in raising their children: alimony is very rare and shared custody is the rule rather than the exception.

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Don't you get it? Gender roles are changing, Swedish men are embracing it, and they no longer feel alienated in their families.

There's less reason for your wife to appreciate your efforts at work as the state uses the money it took from you to pay for her family leave, her medical bills etc.

In the Western world, Most wives have jobs too. The taxes on their salaries pay for their medical bills. And fathers can take family leave too. And You have to appreciate your wife for HER financial contributions too. Oh noooooooooooo things are equal ): ): ): HOW TERRIBLE!

Men's identities are not their job. It is not how much money they make. Once you realize that masculinity isn't about capitalism, maybe you'll stop feeling alienated

Mikael Karlsson owns a snowmobile, two hunting dogs and five guns. In his spare time, this soldier-turned-game warden shoots moose

I mean, isn't that as stereotypically masculine as you can get? You can be a man (stereotypical or not) and be appreciated for it (by others AND your wife), whether or not your wife earns the same amount of money as you. Is your definition of manhood so narrow and petty that you cannot be masculine or paternal unless you are the main provider of income? GROW UP.

[–]melb22 -5 points-4 points-3 points 16 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Mandano, you have things exactly the wrong way around. It amazes me sometimes how the left ends up supporting the things they claim to be opposed to.

You write "Men's identities are not their job". But in Sweden the basic idea is that the most important thing in life is a career. A career is thought to bring autonomy and therefore the Swedes believe that what matters is maximising and equalising the centrality of career for both men and women.

That's why life is organised around career and not family in Sweden. You are supposed to spend your whole life working and the state funds you to take a limited amount of time off when the children are very young. As soon as the children are old enough the parents are expected to return to the important thing - their career.

Men's identities are still supposed to be their job. So are women's. Not only is family life secondary it is no longer the organising principle of society - career is instead.

So you are not being an "anti-capitalist" leftist by supporting the Swedish model. Quite the opposite.

And no - I'm not impressed by men compensating for the decline of a distinctly masculine role in the family by taking on masculine hobbies instead. That's like those stories you get sometimes in the papers here of women who have an almost entirely masculine lifestyle but are then shown in a photo wearing make up and looking glamorous - it's supposed to reassure us that they haven't been entirely androgynised.

I don't buy it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

You're right, your hobbies don't have much to do with your actual masculinity or femininity. I wish more people realized this and weren't such sticklers for rigid gender roles and expectations for gender expression. I'm glad you believe that men and women should be able to do what they please, whether its taking care of their baby or being the main provider, regardless of their gender, without affecting their innate masculinity or femininity (:

The policies the swedish government aim to take identity solely off their jobs, and put some of the identity into their family lives. I believe the article said this was reducing the divorce rates? When fathers are involved with raising their children, they feel more fulfilled and not alienated, as so many men these days are claiming to be. Men will always be masculine and do things the masculine way no matter what they are doing. Because they are men. And men do things differently than women

[–]melb22 -5 points-4 points-3 points 16 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 16 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

they already are, honey. In Sweden.

But seriously, alot of people actually already do the stuff you are saying is impossible. It's the people with their priorities in order who don't take their partners for granted.

Gender roles change with time. You can't cling, crying, to "traditional" roles, when you have no idea whether or not something different would be better or more rewarding for all involved. "Traditional" roles are always oppressing someone's behaviour, making them face social disapproval for something that they have a right to do, harms nobody, and would make them happy. Who cares if gender roles are becoming more lenient. It means that everyone has a little more leeway.

Any of the men you see on the street and you look at them and assume they are "masculine" probably like doing "feminine" things (if such things exist). Some of your manly men like to fuck men, gossip, study literature, sew, babysit, go shopping, decorate their homes, etc etc. The fact that you think masculine men do only MASCULINE THINGS(! IT WOULD BE TOO EMASCULATING TO CARE FOR A CHILD) is incredibly laughable. All men have at least a few stereoptypically "feminine" traits, interests, and behaviours, just as all women have at least a few stereotypically "masculine" traits, interests, and behaviours. It doesn't mean that men and women aren't different, but it means you are incredibly insecure in your masculinity to believe that doing some things that are "traditionally feminine" emasculates you

What is "feminine" and "masculine" has changed throughout history and is changing now. In fact it's breaking down somewhat. If you think that things that women do are automatically feminine, then, gosh darn, you men have nothing left.

[+]melb22 -7 points-6 points-5 points 16 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

way to address ONE thing from my reply.

perhaps the Swedish government is forcing men to figure out that child-rearing is important and rewarding. And if the men are happier, it works. Maybe you would really enjoy it and realize what you have been missing all these years, and then have to eat your words. You don't know.

Also this enforces gender equality in regards to wages (re: family leave) and child-bearing responsibility. Alot of women do not want to have the main responsibility for child-rearing. It's hard work. It can be rewarding. It's about time men learned to appreciate child-care, it's difficulty and it's importance in society while giving moms a fucking rest. Conversely, women get to see how stressful and rewarding it is to be the sole provider. Everybody wins and is more appreciative.

Is it right to make this the law? Maybe not, but it's sound in theory, and will maybe have surprisingly positive effects

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Anon781, apart from providing material and physical security, the father has to guide his sons to success in the world after they leave home. That means maintaining a close enough relationship with his sons, whilst at the same time having standards and expectations of his sons' behaviour and progress. It also means being a role model for his sons when it comes to relationships, work ethic, community involvement, moral behaviour and engagement with life. It's important that sons are able to positively identify with their father and that the father undertakes the higher level tasks of helping his sons establish themselves in work and in a family life of their own.

Many women know how important all this is. That's why you'll often get a lot more praise from your wife by spending time interacting well with your son(s) rather than by doing more traditionally feminine work in the house.

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Title	I'm learning Swedish
Author	Virtblue
Upvotes	40
Comments	75
Date	June 10, 2010 10:08 AM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/cdhdt/im_learning_swedish/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-learning-swedish.1049165 https://theredarchive.com/post/1049165

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