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[–]jokarzen 33 points34 points35 points 3 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
I bet that if you take a bunch of women and men and put them on an island without exposing them to any civilisation (so from birth) then a few of them will naturally be inclined to force their will on the rest. Sometimes that would involve rape.
If anything social indoctrination tends to discourage that kind of behaviour rather than encourage it.
[–]NH_hostel[S] 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
There are many tribal people and there are some place where living conditions are tough like in hilly area of himalaya
They are almost cut from civilization but no one is raping each other,
There may be feeling of attraction and then sexual activity
[–]jokarzen 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well if they are in a tribe they are sort of not a blank slate, but get the social indoctrination of that micro-civilisation.
[–]Effective_Alfalfa360 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Humans have sex because of a bond they form with one another and for pleasure, which is why consent exists with humans in just about all societies. Animals have sex only to procreate and animals don't have concept of consent which is why consent doesn't exist for (most) animals. Consent isn't just a societal thing, I think it's part of our moral compass. Do you think without societal rules, people would just kill each other? No. Because humans aren't killers by nature, just as they aren't rapists by nature. Humans pick up on others emotions and humans desire to have social connection and maintain bonds with people. They want to make other people feel good and they want lifetime companionship. They aren't rapists by nature.
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't want to sound like a narcissist, but heck, humans are special. We are not entirely animals. We do form very complex bonds with one another. We don't see this very often in nature. As far as we know, we are the only ones aware of our own existence, our ego, our own nature, and the consequences of our actions long term, and on this level. Since the dawn of humanity, individuals who showed in anti social behavior (violence, murder, rape, etc) were shunned and ostracized. We don't have humans that grew up around other humans that would have that behavior. We can't not have some kind of social conditioning, it's literally what humans do when we let them be humans lmao. 2 or 3, it doesn't matter. We just seem to have a set of rules, albeit diffrent from culture to culture, and human to human, that we respect. We have a very distinct set of rules that most of us tend to follow.
[–]Effective_Alfalfa360 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What I mean is that if we didn't have any laws against rape, and murder, sure there's be some people who would do those things, but most humans have a pretty good moral compass against those things because we desire connection and form those complex bonds.
[+][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I feel like people wouldn't do it that much more often. Laws always existed, just not in the way they do today, as social and moral laws. As i said, people displaying anti social behavior will probably be shunned from society. That is literally a death sentence. Humans survive because they stick together. Otherwise..
Actually, there is a high possibility that individuals who rape would be shunned socially. Same as those who murder. Those kind of things applied to our primitive cavemen. We aren't entirely animals. There still has to be a reason why rape exists.
[–]jokarzen 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think one of those reasons is that some are inclined to force their will on others and need to be discouraged to do so. Such discouragement I think will naturally occur either during or after an act of rape. However if people in a group are a blank slate such social dynamics will have to form somehow.
There are many reasons why rape occurs and I think it is too simple to say it is because it is somehow (as the picture OP posted suggests) encouraged; to me it seems strongly discouraged.
Most kids I've observed have been a bunch of cunts to each other if left unchecked. Sure some manage to keep the peace, but in most cases there's been a need to say "don't take toys out of each others hands" and "don't whack each other over the head when angry" (even little girls).
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Toddlers(0-6) and children (8 and above) are diffrent age categories. Toddlers don't act right, no matter the species. Children can and will learn.
[+]Effective_Alfalfa360 -6 points-5 points-4 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Its both. Rape culture exists as well as societal rules that discourage rape. I think rape is mostly discouraged in our society but there still IS a lot of pressure for men to get laid AND there are still guys that encourage other guys to roofie women or get a girl drunk in order to get laid because some guys are willing to do something very wrong, out of desperation to get laid because of the pressures on men to get laid. This doesn't make it ok.
Where this links to patriarchy is the patriarchy works for men and against men. The patriarchy shoves women AND men into boxes. Women being housewives and men being providers. While men seem to have the longer end of the stick in a patriarchal society, there still remains pressure on men to get laid. Also, another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of countries nowadays live in a more matriarchal society but in these matriarchal societies, we only see progress for women. Women can choose what they want to do (housewife, provider, etc.) with no shame (except maybe from the older/ conservative generation). Whereas Men will get shamed from all generations if he wants to be a househusband or show his emotions. In both a patriarchal society and today's matriarchal society, men's expectations remain the same- be tough, make lots of money, provide, get laid, etc. and men are taught that they should be content with doing just that. Whereas, women have it easier in a matriarchal society as a lot of feminists push other women to take advantage of this days more matriarchal society. Nowadays, women can do whatever they please as it benefits them. They can have a job and make a lot of money and then turn around, get in a relationship with a guy who meets their impossible expectations, and have him provide for her. She doesn't have to rely on a man but she can also force a man to serve her. Whereas a guy's worth is still heavily placed on being a provider for his girlfriend despite her refusing to contribute her part ("I ain't no housewife!"). His value placed also on having sex and not being a virgin or single by 25.
[–]Reapers-Hound 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
“There are still guys encouraging other guys to roofie women” where the fuck did you read this that ain’t true at all. That behaviour is seriously discouraged by everyone who ain’t mentally ill. There was s a pressure for guys to get laid but society tells you to work on your looks, charm and money not to fucking drug people
[–]Effective_Alfalfa360 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A messed up part of society. Rapists are bad people. These aren't the general population of men because most men don't rape but the very small percent. Some of these rapists are raised in sexist households where they are pressured by their dad to have sex, taught that they are supposed to have control over women, and other sexist ideals. They hang around with people who have similar ideals to them, and then that's where they might do that. The behavior is discouraged but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Also, it is possible that maybe this doesn't happen so often nowadays, but it used to a bigger thing with peer pressure and roofying.
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Men don't rape because of societal pressure to have sex, be for real. There is societal pressure to not kill or steal, and we still do that. People will rape no matter how often they get laid. Women rape too, and there isn't societal pressure on them to have many partners. Married men rape too. Men rape other men, a lot of the times.
My father used to be a sahd when i was younger! Young mothers would flock to him lol. They thought he was widowed or something. It's sad that people think men can't be the sahp. Women also tend to be shamed and called lazy when they don't work. Then again, most families have 2 working parents, since our economy is mostly shit.
Pretty much everyone would be shamed for being a virgin at 25, or it would at least raise questions. Women are shamed relentlessly for not finding a husband in more than a few cultures across the globe. Women hit the wall at 30, after that everyone considers them old hags with cats. Having the right to work and also expecting your partner to work is part of a healthy relationship. I don't understand your complaints. Most people don't make enough to raise a family on one income. Also, not all women find good partners, allas with men. Everyone is welcome to either raise or lower their standards as they may damn well please. If she found someone who fits her expectations and he also thinks she fits his, what would be the problem?
If you are being legally forced by someone to provide, please contact the authorities. I don't know what hellish landscape of a society you live in, but where i live, no one can force anybody to pay for their crap legally, unless they damaged personal property.
[–]Effective_Alfalfa360 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I think I made a poor point about rape. What I meant to say is that the reason rape culture exists is partly societal pressure, the other part them being a bad person. People who roofie girls will often pressure their friends to do it too. People who rape are bad, but it is ALSO part of how they were raised. Do killers kill for no reason? Usually not. Do rapists rape for no reason? Usually not. This is not an excuse, just a reason. Rapists are bad people, but if we can change the way that guys are raised, than maybe those statistics will lower.
No one is being legally forced to provide. If that's the agreement in a relationship, then fine. What I'm trying to say is that men are socially expected to provide. It is a societal expectation that a lot of people fail to see as an issue. I see a lot of videos from feminists of this generation talking about wanting equal pay and saying they don't need a man (I agree with this, women deserve equal pay and nobody NEEDS a man) but then also saying that if they date a man that he needs to be able to provide for her. Then I hear those SAME FEMINISTS say that they don't owe a man shit and that they expect their partner to provide without them having to lift a finger. I see a LOT of entitlement from feminists of this generation and many people blindly support it. But the minute a guy talks about wanting 50/50 in a relationship, he gets so much hate, and a lot of the issue with men is that society expects them to man up and not show emotion. Even a lot of feminists support this notion, despite saying they are about equal rights. This isn't being addressed enough.
Feminism in countries like the U.S., Canada, and the U.K. is thriving (I'm sure there are more countries where Feminism is supported) but yes, there are plenty of cultures where women are discriminated against and even killed. My main point is that there is a big movement covering women's rights but not nearly enough people supporting men's rights. Changes are being made for women's rights but we don't see much for men's rights. Also, a lot of feminists aren't spreading the true message of feminism (which was supposed to be about equality). And too many people who support women's rights are also supporting women's wrongs. 130 feminist organizations including the most popular ones signed their name in support of amber heard AFTER the trial was over. Domestic violence statistics that are current show that the rate is now 50/50 in the U.S. yet those statistics are buried and not showed in feminist media or promoted, and on top of that, the biased/outdated statistics are the ones being pushed and girls can literally abuse their boyfriend on camera and get millions of likes and nobody does anything about it. It is just accepted. I could name a lot more issues that men have that are being completely ignored by most people and the media.
I see people complaining about a guy holding the door open for them and manspreading on a subway, but there are far more pressing issues. Women's issues shouldn't go ignored but we should be focusing on women's issues in other countries more and also working on men's rights at the same time. If there is no support for men, than feminism loses a big chunk of support because why would a guy support something that doesn't care about him.
[+][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I was not talking about women being killed and discriminated against at all. I was talking about sahm literally being bashed and accused of gold digging/leeching/laziness.
Feminism was never about equality. It was about female liberation. It shouldn't be about equality, because men and women are different, biologically and otherwise, and so they have different issues. I do agree that we need more mras (healthy mras, not the trash happening now) to support men's rights. Fuck it, we still don't have enough shelters for men, male rape victims are literally treated like a joke, and people in positions of power still send men to war as if it's not the hugest violation of autonomy over one's own self and one's own body.
As for societal expectations.. again. They are nowhere near the reason why rape is a thing. Entitlement is. Why do you think rape is rampant in islamic countries, where women are considered to be the property of men? You can't give someone anti depressants to stop them from being rapists. Once you have urges to hurt someone in that way, you should shunned from society. Like literally isolated. Rape must literally be the only crime that has no real justification in any case. Even murder can be justified at times. Rape literally can't be, especially if the victim is a child, your student, or someone in your care. It's disgusting and i shudder at the very thought. As i said, WOMEN RAPE TOO. There isn't an expectation on women to fuck as many people as they can. There is also not an expectation on men to fuck other men, especially if they are not homosexuals. If the cause for rape was anywhere near societal expectation to fuck, only men with low partner counts would do it. They don't tho. Every demographic rapes. Yeah, we should free anyone of the pressure to have sex or find a partner, and we should give up on the idea that your most important goal in life is having 1 monogamous partner, but even if we did, rape would still be a thing. It would be just as rampant. The only way to stop it is to literally lock up rapists for the rest of their lives, and make it known that this is what happens to them. We should also encourage victims to come forward about their experiences, and we should absolutely stop making fun of men who were victimized sexually by women and other men.
[–]Effective_Alfalfa360 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I respect that opinion on rape. We may not quite agree on the nature/nurture aspect of rapists but I can see we are more/less on the same page about feminism/men's rights. While feminists claims to be about equality, it really has become more about female liberation only focusing on women's issues. Which is fine but mras need more attention and shouldn't be seen as the enemy of feminism. Men's rights activists shouldn't oppose the healthy side of feminism and Feminism shouldn't oppose the healthy side of mens rights activists. And a better word to reach fairness between the two sexes would be equity rather than equality. Equity meaning different things needed to reach the same goal of fairness between the two sexes.
[–]MagentaSteam 15 points16 points17 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That gosh darn patriarchy …giving men privileges. Like.. I too would like to be suspected of being a pedo when I walk up to a child. Having to be looked at suspiciously because of someone else’s demented mind is true privilege.
[–]crippledhermit 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What we should start doing is creating pro patriarchy hats, hoodies, etc.
Fuck it, let's start leaning into it.
[–]Former_Ocelot5593 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What... does she think her dad, brothers, grandpa, uncle are too? What is with thinking men are animals that's awfully sexist ..
[–]onlyidiotsgoonreddit 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is a perfect example of why patriarchy is the only thing that can protect women from sexual exploitation and other wrongs. This is just one more example where a woman was given a sole custody order, used to it force the real father out of the child's life, and then give her new hookups permission to use the child any way he wanted. Patriarchy is the solution. Matriarchy opens the door to exploiting girls and women.
[–]TheNatureGrandpa 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The Matriarchy conditions women to seemingly think they can sexually & physically assault men and it's perfectly acceptable. I've been repeatedly assualted by women throughout my life by them seemingly believing it's okay to grope when they want or hit me when they're mad, seemingly because society/media never portrays it as negative when they do it. Oh, and there's little to no social support for male victims, because the matriarchy makes it so that they "cannot exist" / "it does not compute."
Men are considered vermin when they do that sort of thing. Men aren't being forced to become r*pists by some patriarchy, they are extremely dissueded by society from doing that, and are being forced to become victims. TF is this?
[–]DaddySmallJohn -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The type of man who gets with a single mother is a low value man with little self worth
A young female with daddy issues begging for attention and a male figure in their life
A man with low self worth and a girl in her prime years who is desperate for a male figure
If anybody should be in jail it is the man for raping her, and the mother for bringing him into her life.
What was the expected outcome here? How do you take the type of man who has to settle for an old worn out woman to resist a woman in her prime years who is desperate for his approval. The man is scum, but so is the mother. Both deserve to rot in jail.
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
We were talking about rape, not consensual sex. Most rape victims are abused by people they know, close friends, a lot of the times families, people in positions of power(teachers, their boss, things like that). What you described was a very specific scenario. Someone you view as low value doesn't have to be a rapist. His mother also has jackshit to do with it. Men also rape other men. Women also rape. Whats their excuse??
[–]DaddySmallJohn -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The man committed statutory rape. The man is guilty of rape because the law says the victim can never consent, such as;
Statutory rape is consensual sex with someone who by law can not legally consent that therefore is considered raped. What happened in this case was considered statutory. I agree it was disgusting and vile. But the man did not rape her, he statutory raped her. No force, coercion, or violence was used, had she been 18 it wouldn't have even been the crime at all.
Again I must repeat it is absolutely vile, disgusting, and predatory. It should in no case be allowed. It should be charged to the full extent of the law. However I do believe the mother is an accomplice, an accessory to the statutory rape. She is taking a man who is willing to lower himself to being with her, an old woman with a long past and raising someone else's child, ie a low status low self worth man, and connecting him with a female child that is going through puberty and is desperate for a male figure to love and respect and in return earn his love and affection. This is the natural outcome of her actions. The mother is just as a much a criminal as the father, and both need to be put in jail.
It's wrong because they cannot psychologically inhabit the same space as a fully formed adult.
And yes, I agree. I am 35, and anyone in their 20s and 30s who needs to be fucking teenagers is a predator and has severe issues. My daughter is nearly 14, and she is a child. Someone my age does not belong anywhere near a relationship with someone with that age differential. If my spouse brought in a man into my house after I passed away or she divorced me and something happened to my daughter while living in that house I would want my spouse brought into jail along with the vile piece of shit who touched my daughter.
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, there is a reason why in countries where men are considered superior(islamic countries), rape is rampant. Rape is also pretty much rooted in sexism. It's about overpowering your victim, not attraction. There is also a reason why weaker men get violently raped in jail so much. They are basically pushed into submission. Also, see what kind of treatment pedophiles get in jail. They are the most hated group there, hence the most sexually abused. It's about hate and power. I don't subscribe to the patriarchy theory in 99% of cultures, because it's simply not the case. But again, there is a clear bond between rape and misogyny, rape and hatred, and raping someone into submission is surely as fuck a thing.
[–]Iceman_Hottie 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's a part of the base assumptions that make their whole ideology make any sense. Namely, this is Rousseau's position on society and is at the core of all ideologies based on it, feminism being just one of them.
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[–]jokarzen 33 points34 points35 points (16 children) | Copy Link
[–]NH_hostel[S] 7 points8 points9 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]jokarzen 9 points10 points11 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Effective_Alfalfa360 6 points7 points8 points (3 children) | Copy Link
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[–]jokarzen 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
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[+]Effective_Alfalfa360 -6 points-5 points-4 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Reapers-Hound 3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Effective_Alfalfa360 -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]Former_Ocelot5593 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]TheNatureGrandpa 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]DaddySmallJohn -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
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