BBC News - Women first rule 'ignored in ship disasters' - study

fondueguy · 2012-04-13T11:10:00+00:00

Pelle Billing's blog covered this story two days ago, there are some very interesting comments. In Swedish, of course, but I can translate particular comments someone wants it:

http://www.pellebilling.se/2012/04/titanic-mer-undantag-an-regel-%E2%80%93-dock-bor-slutsatserna-nyanseras/

I take Ulf T's two comments first, as they are very good:

Ulf T writes: 12 april 2012 kl 19:51

I wrote a comment about this on GenusNytt - two comments, actually.

I can repeat them here:

Very interesting report. It defintively gives Pär Ström right in that the survival chance for women was much higher than for men on the Titanic.

Most of all, though, the report becomes a good example of when you need to look past the statistics and examine the raw data. The researchers have acted exemplarily in giving access to lots of information for the readers.

When you read the descriptions of the individual disasters, no picture appears that men ensure their survival at women's expense. In some cases attempts were made at privileging women and children, but it went to hell. Other times, the women simply had bad luck. Similarly, in many cases there are logical explanations why the crew did better. In most of the cases the situation was so difficult that only those with great luck, great strength and will to live had any chance of surviving. Of the captains who didn't go down with their ship, many stayed with the ship to the end, but still survived. (Page references are to Appendix A+B in the end of the report):

Captain Luce was reported to have stayed with the ship until it sank, but managed to survive on a piece of debris and was picked up two days after the accident.

(SS Arctic, p. 10)

Despite the prolonged sinking many passengers perished in the shipwreck because they were unable to reach the boat deck. The single women, in the stern compartments, drowned as the water flooded their beds. The families suffered a similar fate in the amidships compartments. It has been estimated that only two or three families and not a single woman from the steerage made it to the boat deck (Cochkanoff and Chaulk, 2009). The bow compartments on the other hand were not flooded immediately. This gave the single men an advantage as they had more time to escape.

(RMS Atlantic, p. 17)

There are scarce reports on the acting of the passengers and the crew. It is notable that the survival rate of crew members is much higher than the passenger’s. However, the official inquiry speaks of no selfishness or cowardice of the crew; instead this is to be explained by the fact that Captain Kendall ordered ‘all hands on deck’ when he realized that the collision was inevitable. This gave the crew a significant advantage over the sleeping passengers.

(RMS Empress of Ireland, p. 22)

The captain and the crew started the evacuation of the ship at 10 AM. Records show that women and children were separated from the men and placed in different lifeboats. There are, however, no reports of any explicit order to prioritize women and children. The weather conditions in combination with the heavy list made it difficult to launch these boats. One was damaged and sunk when it reached the surface, whereas the other two were left hanging on the side of the ship when it went down. As a consequence, none of the 12 children, and only 8 of the 33 women survived (the two women of the crew not included) the shipwreck

(SS Vestris, p. 32)

It appears as if most passengers managed to reach the deck. Several of the survivors were standing on the portside deck. When the ship lurched on its side, they managed to haul themselves over to the ship’s side, an act demanding strength and agility. With the ship’s side serving as floor they could reach the lifeboats that were gathered at the stern (Cameron, 2002). The less fortunate passengers fell off the deck as the list increased. The weather made it difficult to reach people in the water from the lifeboats and they were soon pulled down by the heavy sea or succumbed to hypothermia and drowned.

(MV Princess Victoria, p. 37)

Ulf T writes: 12 april 2012 kl 19:55

My other comment on this from GenusNytt:

The DN-article also makes a point out of that captains save themselves first.

The study [...] even shows that captains often leave their ships to save themselves ahead of the passengers.

There is little support for that in the stories, but 7 of 16 captains survived. Let's look at what it says about each of them in turn:

Captain Luce was reported to have stayed with the ship until it sank, but managed to survive on a piece of debris and was picked up two days after the accident.

(SS Arctic, p. 10)

The captain survived the disaster.

(SS Golden Gate, p. 13)

The loss of the Atlantic called into question the actions of the captain. However, according to witness testimonies he had remained calm throughout the disaster; he directed people to move towards the safer bow and instructed them how to overcome hypothermia (Cochkanoff and Chaulk, 2009). He also remained on the wreck and made sure that everybody who was still alive made it to shore. […] He was finally picked up by a boat.

(RMS Atlantic, p. 17)

The captain survived the disaster (Sebak, 2004) and the prosecution following the disaster granted him for his good seamanship, and especially his ability to keep the passengers calm throughout the evacuation.

(SS Norge, p. 22)

Captain Kendall survived the disaster. He was thrown off the bridge as the ship capsized but managed to reach a lifeboat.

(RMS Empress of Ireland, p. 26)

The captain ordered women and children to be saved first. We have however, not found any indications of this order to being enforced. The captain remained on the bridge until the end, but did survive the disaster.

(RMS Lusitania)

Acting Captain Warms and most of the ship’s officers survived the disaster. They were among the last survivors to leave the ship.

(SS Morro Castle, p. 34)

Captain Markov survived the disaster and was sentenced to 15 years prison for misconduct.

(SS Admiral Nakhimov, p. 40, the ship sank in 7 minutes)

So, in one case the captain was a disaster, and was sentenced to 15 years in prison. In one case we know nothing except that the captain survived. In another the captain was thrown overboard, but survived. In the other cases the captain either died or was among the last to leave the ship. In a number of cases the captain did no attempt at saving himself.

Again they draw conclusions directly from the statistics instead of looking at the underlying material.

(There were apparently 8 surviving captains. When they arrive at 7, they don't count RMS Lusitania, which was the target of earlier research.)

Looks like this article is an attempt to shame men (and crew members) for not doing more. And not dying even when they had to cling to debris for two days.

2012-04-13T10:43:42+00:00

Yeah, first saw that story on Pelle Billing's blog. A bit skeptical about this study. They make little effort to disentangle the survival rate that can be attributed to chivalry, and the one that can be attributed to strength/thinking quick in a crisis/other advantages men on ships might have.

To take an example, they point to the diminishing gap in survival rates after 1940, and see this as evidence of "women's increased status". But ship safety improved a lot during the 20th century. You'd expect that being smaller and weaker would be less of a disadvantage as e.g. evacuation procedures improved.

truthjusticeca · 2012-04-13T10:51:52+00:00

The authors of the report, economists Mikael Elinder and Oscar Erixson, say the captain has the power to enforce the rule.

If the ship sinks quickly or if the Captain doesn't enforce male disposability then it's ever person for themselves.

ThePigman · 2012-04-13T11:18:44+00:00

Who gives a toss about the women? They aren't our superiors so why should they go first? Shame about the kids not being a priority though.

fondueguy · 2012-04-13T16:12:45+00:00

But the "women and children first" rule is now seen as the normal way to behave in emergencies.

...

But they say their findings show that behaviour in real life-or-death situations is best captured by the expression "every man for himself".

...

The analysis showed that the gender gap in death rates has narrowed in disasters since World War I.

Not really sure what's being said.

Title	BBC News - Women first rule 'ignored in ship disasters' - study
Author	discworldian
Upvotes	10
Comments	24
Date	April 13, 2012 9:43 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/s7pwd/bbc_news_women_first_rule_ignored_in_ship/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/bbc-news-women-first-rule-ignored-in-ship.1024071 https://theredarchive.com/post/1024071

Comments