question about abortion and mens/womens rights?

tomek77 · 2010-02-06T23:55:04+00:00

Hi Killertofuuuuu,

Regarding the law: the bf WILL pay child support, there is no way out of this for him.

Regarding what should be fair in this case: as you said it is a controversial topic - even in MR's! Personally, I would favor a way for men to "sign-off" on an early pregnancy, and give up all rights and responsibilities (i.e. child support) to the child. Of course, the woman can then make an informed decision regarding her pregnancy.

redditbannedmeagain · 2010-02-07T01:36:51+00:00

There was a good discussion on this recently in /r/Equality. My opinions are buried somewhere in there, and are pretty much the same as tomek77's here.

DougDante · 2010-02-07T03:00:28+00:00

Firstly, I'm going to point out that you assume that once the child is born dad doesn't have custody. Even if he favored abortion initially, the sight of his child alive and moving may immediately and forever change him, as it has to many fathers throughout time.

In theory, child custody is decided without regard to gender, at least in Michigan, and the custody arrangements of a newborn baby are based on the court's determination of the best interests of a child. In practice, judges get in serious trouble if they dare give dads custody, even when there is clear and convincing evidence that he is the better parent. Recently, a mom in Michigan who had many run-ins with the Department of Human Services regarding her previous children also of her newborn to a different father, who was a perfectly capable parent. There was a serious outcry in her favor. You know, because the baby is her property or something.

But a dad in this hypothetical situation may never see the child. Abortion is just one small part of reproductive rights. There are many reproductive rights largely enjoyed by women, but often denied to (mostly unmarried) men, including:

the right to know that you have children.

the right to verify that the kid you think is yours is your biological kid

the right to not care for a kid who is not biologically yours or yours via voluntary process such as adoption.

the right to spend time with your kid - without government supervision

the right to take your kid to a doctor - requires legal custody. now summarily stripped at birth in Michigan from unmarried fathers.

the right to see your kid's school records or get information about school events - e.g. by default most unmarried dads don't have custody, have no notice of or awareness of parent teacher conferences, so they are unable to attend.

the right to cook your kid a meal and feed him/her - e.g. feed him/her a hamburger even if mom is a vegetarian and doesn't approve.

the right to take your kid across state lines - e.g. to Disney World

the right to take your kid across international lines - e.g. to Vancouver for the Winter Olympics

All of these rights are being denied men much more frequently than women.

shady8x · 2010-02-07T23:31:37+00:00

Regarding the law: even if the 'boyfriend' happens to be an underage child being drugged and raped... he will still be forced to pay child support or go to prison(and be faced with further rapes which are always implied by prison sentences). Yes, that is indeed how fucked up the current laws are.

As for being able to walk away from paying child support, I believe that if you are allowed to give children up for adoption without being forced to pay child support, then you should be able to have something similar where a father/mother is able to give the child up for adoption to the other parent without having any further rights to the child or financial liability.

This should be allowed for the same amount of time as abortion. (the number days between conception and the time when it is illegal to abort). This grace period should start on the day that the father learns he has a child or that the child he has been taking care of isn't his.

killertofuuuuu · 2010-02-08T07:18:45+00:00

I'm really torn on this topic. One the one hand I feel that the male is just as responsible for that pregnancy as the female is. And on the other I know that the power to keep or abort that pregnancy is the woman's alone. I would never suggest that a woman should be denied an abortion because she should have thought of that before she had sex. So I don't feel comfortable telling a man that he should have to pay child support because he should have thought of that before he had sex. I guess in a perfect world they'd agree together whether or not to keep the child or allow for some sort of forfeit in regards to men (and women too I guess) and custody/child support. Though I can see how having an opt out option for men could be abused. I wonder how many less women would have unplanned pregnancies/children if they couldn't get child support from the father.

kog13 · 2010-02-08T17:03:52+00:00

My ex-girlfriend and I had an interesting conversation about this. Overall, she believes that men should have no legal right to make a decision regarding abortion, and that if you have a child it's your financial obligation. I argued back that if a man doesn't want a child and a woman he accidentally gets pregnant decides to keep the kid without consulting him, then he has absolutely no choice regarding his future. Despite the fact that he strongly protested having the kid in the first place he's forced to help raise it, and at the least pay child support. If the woman, however, didn't want the kid, there's no problem. Abortion and it's done.

I sent her the link to a webpage that was a very good case for men's rights regarding the issue, and after reading that she told me she still believed that men should have no legal right to decide, but she sounded slightly more uncertain.

AnnArchist · 2010-02-07T08:02:54+00:00

Yes, and imho he should have to pay. He has to pay in America. The problem with the laws in America in my book are not the fact that he has to pay, but the amount he has to pay and the difficulty getting custody and the fact that women pretend to be equals, but then when they are a mother, they don't want the father to have half custody and no child support (Since they can both freggin work!)

I also don't think a child should be allowed to leave the hospital without a father being ACCURATELY identified.

killertofuuuuu · 2010-02-08T06:29:03+00:00

ok boys what do you think of my opinion on the matter then?

Liverotto · 2010-02-07T17:04:52+00:00

This is what would happen under Roman law:

http://www.stoa.org/diotima/anthology/wlgr/wlgr-privatelife249.shtml

A letter from a Roman citizen to his wife, dating from 1 BCE, demonstrates the casual nature with which infanticide was often viewed:

"I am still in Alexandria. ... I beg and plead with you to take care of our little child, and as soon as we receive wages, I will send them to you. In the meantime, if (good fortune to you!) you give birth, if it is a boy, let it live; if it is a girl, expose it."

The 29th year of Caesar, Pauni 23.

Title	question about abortion and mens/womens rights?
Author	killertofuuuuu
Upvotes	13
Comments	27
Date	February 6, 2010 11:42 PM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ayyo6/question_about_abortion_and_menswomens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-about-abortion-and-menswomens-rights.1050923 https://theredarchive.com/post/1050923

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