Shamelessly promoting my new blog with a post about what I believe feminists are right about and what antifeminists/critics of feminism could actually learn from them...

LacklustreFriend · 2019-11-08T12:41:05+00:00

To be blunt, this article reads as though your only experience with criticisms of feminism are single sentence Youtube comments. I'll try and explain the problems I have with your post briefly, honestly it's not something I want to spend a great deal of time on.

Firstly, there is a distinction between two broad types of "anti-feminism" or critics of feminism, who criticize feminism for two very different reasons. First is the "conservative anti-feminist", which I guess is vaguely the topic of your post. The same says it all, this group are typically neoconservatives who oppose feminism because they want a return to a traditional gender system. Second is what I'll broadly call "male advocates", who typically include MRAs, egalitarians and some self labelled "anti-feminists". Male advocates criticize feminism because they believe feminism has been unsuccessful in liberating men from their gender role, and often critique feminism's role in maintaining the male gender role. Contrasted with conservative anti-feminists, male advocates don't want a return to traditional gender roles, they instead want to push gender liberation even further by liberating men. You make no real distinction your post, so I can only assume you don't understand the difference and conflate the two.

It's also important to note that there are also two broad types of feminism. "Equality/Equity Feminism" which is the feminism based on the pure equality of the sexes, the average Jane's definition of feminism. The other feminism is "Ideological Feminism" (I sometimes like to call "Institutional Feminism"), who believe historically and currently society is inherently oppressive to women, and men are inherently oppressive. Ideological Feminism is rooted in Patriarchy theory (which has more meaning than simply "men have political power". Male advocates have no objection to Equality Feminism (on the contrary, they celebrate it). Male advocates object to Ideological Feminism because they believe Patriarchy theory is wrong (that is, not an accurate representation of society), and that Ideological Feminism is actively harming men (e.g. Duluth model, Tender years doctrine, downplaying male victims of rape etc).

Now addressing the specific arguments that you made:

Given the choice, antifeminist men would rather hurt a woman than help a man.

You provide no evidence supporting this, other than "because I think so". It's a typical "anyone who criticizes feminism must be a misogynist". Feminism is not the same thing as women. On the contrary, it is a well documented phenomenon that both men and women prefer to help women over men, and perceive negative actions against women more strongly than against men (Women Are Wonderful effect). The onus is really on you to prove that critics of feminism are actively harming women at all, let alone "more than they help men".

2.The set of attributes, behaviors, and roles we culturally define as “masculinity” do contain a great many elements that are hurting men themselves; calling them “toxic” is appropriate.

The discussion surrounding "toxic masculinity" is incredibly complicated, so I won't go into a huge amount of detail here. I seriously recommend you search either this subreddit here or /r/FeMRADebates for discussions on toxic masculinity for the criticisms people have of the term. Just to briefly mention two - toxic masculinity is still very much used as a insult and demean men even if that's not what it's "meant" to be about - toxic masculinity is seen as something internal to men, caused by their own behavior, while "toxic femininity" is often seen as "internalized misogyny" from society applying social pressure on women externally, feeding into the "men oppressor, women oppressed" dynamic. I will also add that the example you gave is almost laughably bad, is vegetarianism seriously the best example you can give? It's not even a good example - as you point out, it's women who find vegetarian men less attractive. Surely women bear some the responsibility for men's behaviour then, not just "toxic masculinity"?

3.You can be sexually submissive and still be a feminist.

I actually have no clue what your argument here is, and if there even is one. This is just a rant about BDSM. The closest thing to an argument I can find is "anti-feminists are stupid because they don't realize BDSM is just fantasy". Also, I recommend you look into radical feminist positions more - there are absolutely radical feminists who believe all sex is predatory and harmful towards women, and they absolutely do have power. How is this something to 'learn from feminism' when feminism doesn't even agree with itself?

4.Women from all walks of lives, of all races, creeds, and tongues have to work together if they want to achieve something for their sex.

This isn't even an argument. At best, this is just a rehashing of point 1 - "they don't even help men they're just misogynists". Feminism currently currently holds a monopoly on any mainstream discussion of gender issues. As I mentioned before, feminism has contributed to maintaining men's gender roles. Clearly, in order to achieve men's liberation we have to challenge the current orthodoxy of feminism.

5.Islam is not immune to feminism.

I agree, it's not. Women in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran, are making some progress due to homegrown feminist movements. But you're kind of missing the point. You spend most of this point just talking generally about Islamophobia without really relating it to feminists. You don't really address any of the real points that have been made about western feminism and Islam. For example, is it moral for western feminists to focus on perceived minor grievances against women in the West, while women in (some) Islamic countries can't even go outside their homes without a man? Why has feminism constantly pushed the concept of a "rape culture", yet refuses to address spikes of rapes being committed by Islamic immigrants in Europe? What about discussion about how some pillars of Islam may be fundamentally incompatible with feminism (e.g. Sharia law), or if not the religious aspects of Islam, than possibly the cultural aspects? What is western feminism actively doing to influence Islamic culture, either overseas or domestically?

I too detest Islamophobia, but the fact is western feminism has turned a blind eye towards Islam (I think this is largely due to the fact it conflicts with how intersectional feminism is practiced). There could very well be answers/solutions to the questions I asked, but feminism hasn't addressed any of them.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2019-11-08T12:16:00+00:00

Disagree on the toxic masculinity thing.

I believe what's usually identified as toxic masculinity is simply men recognizing and adapting to their role as disposable tools in society.

A weak or defective tool isn't nurtured back to health. It's tossed out and replaced with a better one. So if men want to maintain any standing they need to hide any weakness. The alternative is worse than suffering in silence usually.

So it's actually male disposablilty and objectification.

apeironman · 2019-11-08T13:28:36+00:00

I disagree on much that you have written here. You make entirely too many broad speculations based on anecdotal evidence.

The reasons why I am anitifeminist is because feminists are anti-men. Everything from the gender pay gap, to domestic violence, to toxic masculinity, are lies spread by feminist propaganda organizations to demonize men. I have been hearing these lies for decades.

From Mary P. Koss continuing to spread the '1 in 5' statistic about rape, to Julie Bindel recommending culling the male population by 90%, to Suzanna Danuta Walters writing "Why can't we hate Men?", or Solaris' 'SCUM Manifesto"(and this is just a small sample of feminist women's attacks on men).

Or how about NOW lobbying against a shared parenting bill in Florida, even though studies prove children do better with more fatherly influence in their lives? How about the many feminist organizations that continue to promote the heavily biased Duluth model when passing laws dealing with domestic violence, such as VAWA? Or the ACA, which gives free annual healthcare cancer screenings...but only for women, despite the fact that men die more frequently from cancer and live shorter lives overall?

Let me guess, you are going to say 'Not all women!'. You would be correct. However, as long as your average feminist does not speak out against the leaders of feminist lobbies and governmental organizations who continue to demonize men, they are giving tacit agreement to their actions.

Toxic masculinity? Absolute bullshit. Just another attack on men. Anything is toxic if taken too far. Water is toxic if you drink enough of it. If masculinity can be toxic, so can femininity. The fact that you don't hear about it should tell you all you need to know about who is in charge of the message.

I don't hate women, but I have learned through hard experience that they are just people like everyone else: they lie, cheat, steal, and can be violent. I have been physically and mentally hurt more by women than men due to the social conditioning that I was indoctrinated with since birth: "girls are sugar and spice and everything nice, boys are snips and snails", "don't hit women", "women are the gentler sex". etc. I cringe when I recall how many passes I would give women for shitty behavior in my youth, and I still do it today sometimes if caught unaware. If you pay attention, you will be amazed at how much social privilege women have. Women have been privileged for so long that when treated equally, they think they are being treated unfairly.

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