What the hell | MensRights

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[–]Alpaca64 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

I never said anything about feminism. I firmly believe that both genders have traits that are largely associated with their own gender rather than both or neither.

For example, a woman who hits a man because she's a woman and knows the guy won't fight back is an example of toxic femininity. Playing the victim to manipulate the real victim... But likewise, toxic masculinity exists as well. For example, a man who feels the need to defend his masculinity by acts of aggression and dominance because "that's what men do."

And then there are also gender-neutral toxic traits which could be considered both toxicly masculine or feminine depending on the details. Or just plain toxic behavior that isn't related to a gender dynamic, and is just generally shitty.

Denying that toxic masculinity exists is as regressive asserting feminine dominance. We need to evolve as a gender to eliminate toxic traits that people feel the need to fall into, whether that means modifying either masculine or feminine behavior and ideology.

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[–]Only2DaysLeft 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Biologically there are two genders. We understand there is a distinction between male and female. The words masculine and feminine are adjectives that describe something in relation to their respective definitions.

Behavior is the set of actions performed by a person with no distinction made between gender, age, race or any other personal characteristic. The only distinction we make is between good behavior and bad behavior. The reason for that is based on the idea of equality under the law.

Operating a motor vehicle in a reckless and dangerous manner is deemed unlawful and can result in judicial action against the driver. Whether the driver is a man or a woman does not change the lawfulness of the action.

Gender is irrelevant when it comes to determining the lawfulness of an action. It is irrelevant when determining right or wrongful behavior. If an action is wrong for one gender, it is wrong for the other.

One of the foremost problems we face is the acceptance of bad behavior by only one gender despite the behavior being viewed as wrong on all fronts.

Case in point, it is socially acceptable for a female to strike a male. It is not socially acceptable for a male to strike a female. The behavior - physical assault - is unlawful and most agree it is wrong.

When the genders of the people involved are unknown, a clear cut decision can be made. The perpetrator is charged with a crime.

But that isn't possible is it? We have to know the parties involved. We must speak with the accuser and the accused to determine what happened. We must search for the truth and weed out any lies.

Why is it that legally it is wrong but socially it is acceptable for a female to assault a male?

Before we include gender, good and bad behavior is cut and dry. The moment you include gender you open the door to bias in judgement.

By affiliating gender with behavior as in the idea of toxic masculinity you are creating a biased situation from the start.

Can you identify a behavior specific to one gender?

[–]Alpaca641 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Only2DaysLeft1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Alpaca641 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Only2DaysLeft2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Alpaca641 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Unfortunately, yes it does exist. People do bad things in the name of masculinity all the time. People hurt their wives physically or emotionally because they're the man and they have to be in control. People get into physical altercations to prove their machismo. People suffer through mental health problems because it's "unmanly" to ask for help.

Toxic masculinity can hurt a lot of people. All for the simple cause of gender identification. That's not to say that women can't also do these things, but these are examples of very real motivations that some people have to rationalize and go through with X negative behavior.

And again, in an ideal world these gender identification factors wouldn't exist. But it just isn't that simple. Sure, there is good that comes from gender identity. Men may feel more inclined to protect their home and their family because that's a masculine trait. But shouldn't that just be a human trait? Women are more inclined to stay at home with children because nurturing children is seen as a feminine trait, but again, shouldn't all humans strive to nurture the next generation?

Even when it comes to positive gendered traits, the segregation is overall harmful. It puts mental blocks on what people feel that they can do with their lives, whether consciously or subconsciously. I believe that without gender constructing and constricting our views of the world, we would all be free to do a lot more good.

[–]Only2DaysLeft1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People do bad things in the name of masculinity all the time. People hurt their wives physically or emotionally because they're the man and they have to be in control.

I'm curious about the language you use here. You use 'people' being hurtful to 'wives' because they are 'men'. This is very odd phrasing.

Do you have a source for this? In my years, I've never known a man to say, "I beat my wife to prove my manhood."

Control issues exist in relationships and are seen from both men and women. This is not a gendered issue. This is not toxic masculinity. This is simply bad behavior.

People get into physical altercations to prove their machismo.

Yes, and it is socially acceptable when framed as sports. It is legal to beat up your opponent in UFC competitions. That is the point - to demonstrate physical prowess and ability.

Physical altercations on a private level, street fighting, are not legally recognized, but still used to demonstrate physical prowess and ability.

Competition is ingrained in every aspect of our culture. It is how we measure ourselves against others; how we set goals to achieve greater success. Competition is a basic function in all of nature, it is not toxic masculinity.

People suffer through mental health problems because it's "unmanly" to ask for help.

You are confusing the idea of self-reliance with shame from asking for help. Do some people neglect their health out of fear of asking for help? Sure. Do some people prefer to work it out for themselves before seeking treatment? Yes.

Not everything needs a diagnosis of mental disturbance - medicate ASAP! There are legitimate cases that need professional help. And then there are cases where people need to help themselves.

We've grown into a 'pill for everything' culture but I don't buy it. An entire industry that rakes in billions a year has emerged with the premise that, "There's something wrong with you and you must pay us to diagnose and treat your illness." Often including a lifetime membership to prescription land.

If a mental health professional offeres services and medication free of charge, they won't be in business very long. They are financially motivated to find something wrong with you. This is a problem.

It reminds me of the paradox of dentistry. If a dentist makes a good living fixing my teeth, why am I going to trust their advice on which toothbrush to use? If they honestly tell me which brush works best, that means less fixing of teeth which then means less income for the dentist.

Should I trust somebody who is motivated by how much money they can get out of me?

Same thing in the mental health profession. If they don't find anything wrong, they can't get paid for reoccurring visits.

To retouch on the idea of self-reliance, if we depend on a pill for everything, how can we become stronger, naturally?

Again, there are real situations that need treatment. But how many situations can be handled without seeking medical treatment? Part of the idea of self-reliance is knowing when to seek treatment and when to give the body time to heal itself.

Depression is as normal in life as happiness. Being depressed provides contrast and challenges to overcome. If you run to the doctor for pills when you are depressed, how will you learn to fight your depression with your own abilities? How will you develop the ability to bring yourself out of a depression if you rely on drugs and therapy to do it for you?

Toxic masculinity can hurt a lot of people.

No. Toxic behavior can hurt a lot of people. Any behavior that is bad from one gender is also bad from the other. You could not identify any specific behavior belonging to only one gender but you still want to gender the subject of bad behavior. That does not makes sense to me

Sure, there is good that comes from gender identity. Men may feel more inclined to protect their home and their family because that's a masculine trait. But shouldn't that just be a human trait? Women are more inclined to stay at home with children because nurturing children is seen as a feminine trait, but again, shouldn't all humans strive to nurture the next generation?

This also doesn't make sense. You want to remove gender from positive behaviors but you specifically want to view gender in negative behavior.

Why do you want to apply gender to only one side of the equation?

I believe that without gender constructing and constricting our views of the world, we would all be free to do a lot more good.

You even espouse that applying gender to our views of the world is restrictive, yet you advocate for the use of a gendered phrase to describe bad behavior.

Your arguments are not consistent. Did you notice that?

[–]Alpaca641 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you serious? It's like you aren't even reading my post, you're just trying to sweep it out of your mind.

Do you have a source for this? In my years, I've never known a man to say, "I beat my wife to prove my manhood."

Control issues exist in relationships and are seen from both men and women. This is not a gendered issue. This is not toxic masculinity. This is simply bad behavior.

No, a person likely won't say "yeah I feel manly when I beat my woman into submission" but are you saying that this doesn't happen? It does.

And yes, control issues are present in both genders. Again, males tend more towards violence than women.

People get into physical altercations to prove their machismo.

I'm not talking about sports, my dude. People fight each other because they want to prove whose manly and tough. Why even mention the legality of street fights? They're obviously not legal, but they happen. Often times as a result of macho posing and needing to feel superior physically.

Competition is a basic function in all of nature, it is not toxic masculinity

That's not at all what I said. Yeah sure, go ahead and have a friendly, sportsman-like competition and that's great. But that's not always how people compete, and especially when it comes to physical "competition" of beating someone in a fight, that can get very toxic very quickly.

You are confusing the idea of self-reliance with shame from asking for help.

The two can both happen. They aren't mutually exclusive. Sometimes only one happens, but don't pretend that some men would never even consider going to see a therapist because of the stigma.

I'm going to skip on over that whole tangent about pills because that's not what I'm talking about.

No. Toxic behavior can hurt a lot of people. Any behavior that is bad from one gender is also bad from the other. You could not identify any specific behavior belonging to only one gender but you still want to gender the subject of bad behavior. That does not makes sense to me

Maybe take the time to listen to what I'm saying then.

Toxic behavior hurts people. That, we agree on. But when the toxic behavior is fueled by a motivation related to gender, that then becomes a gendered toxic behavior. If I beat someone up for no reason, that's just toxic. If I beat someone up because he called me his bitch and now I have to prove that I'm physically manlier than him, that's toxic masculinity.

You're completely missing the point. The fact that there is no behavior that's exclusive to a single gender is irrelevant. It's the reasoning behind the behavior which carries the gender into the discussion.

This also doesn't make sense. You want to remove gender from positive behaviors but you specifically want to view gender in negative behavior.

Again, not what I'm saying. I want to remove the gender-barriers from good behaviors such as these. Make it so that a male is more comfortable being a stay at home dad for example.

Why do you want to apply gender to only one side of the equation?

I don't want to apply gender to either side of the equation. But it's always applied to both sides.

yet you advocate for the use of a gendered phrase to describe bad behavior.

Did I advocate for the use of the phrase toxic masculinity? Or did I simply explain what it is and why it exists?

Again, you're jumping to conclusions and trying to put words in my mouth. The bottom line is this: gender roles exist in our society for good or for bad. Ideally, we would break down gender to the point that these roles don't exist, but for the time being it is advantageous to be able to use the wording properly for categorization if everyone else is doing so anyway. Toxic masculinity exists. Toxic behavior exists. These aren't always synonymous, even when a male is the one doing the bad behavior.

[–]Only2DaysLeft1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's like you aren't even reading my post, you're just trying to sweep it out of your mind.

Ad hominems do not make your arguments stronger.

No, a person likely won't say "yeah I feel manly when I beat my woman into submission" but are you saying that this doesn't happen? It does.

If it does happen then you have a source. Otherwise you are making assumptions.

Yeah sure, go ahead and have a friendly, sportsman-like competition and that's great.

Why even mention the legality of street fights?

Because you accept the macho posturing in legally recognized sporting events but you reject them in illegal events.

If you said that physical contact sports are an exhibition of toxic masculinity in the same way that street fights are then your position would be intellectually consistent. But you pick and choose when to apply toxic masculinity to the same behavior in different settings.

[Fighting is] Often times as a result of macho posing and needing to feel superior physically.

Yes. This is exactly the reason - to compete. If legally sanctioned boxing matches are friendly, sportsman-like competition, not toxic masculinity on display, then illegal fights are also not displays of toxic masculinity.

But that's not always how people compete, and especially when it comes to physical "competition" of beating someone in a fight, that can get very toxic very quickly.

If somebody breaks the rules in a fight they are exhibiting bad behavior. We call it unsportsmanlike. Men AND women are guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct. This is not a gendered problem, it is a problem of bad behavior.

but don't pretend that some men would never even consider going to see a therapist because of the stigma.

This isn't a valid argument. You are demanding me to assume to know what motivates people to do what they do. If you don't have sources to point to then all you have is speculation. We can hypothesize if you want but we will only do so with the understanding that no actual facts are being discussed. And I'm not interested in that type of discussion.

Toxic behavior hurts people. That, we agree on. But when the toxic behavior is fueled by a motivation related to gender, that then becomes a gendered toxic behavior.

You have provided no behavior specific to one gender. You have also not provided any sources that validate your idea that having a penis motivates specific toxic behaviors.

Through our discussion we have established that men and women exhibit the same toxic behaviors. We also established that toxic behavior is not a gender specific problem yet you insist on trying to make it a gendered issue.

If I beat someone up for no reason, that's just toxic. If I beat someone up because he called me his bitch and now I have to prove that I'm physically manlier than him, that's toxic masculinity.

If a woman beats somebody up because they called her a whore, she is motivated to cleanse her name through violent response.

Whether it is a man or a woman, the violent response to verbal assault is not acceptable. And it is not toxic masculinity. It is primal human nature to defend one's reputation.

You're completely missing the point. The fact that there is no behavior that's exclusive to a single gender is irrelevant. It's the reasoning behind the behavior which carries the gender into the discussion.

In the example above the reasoning is not gender specific. It is endemic to protecting one's reputation. This behavioral response is not exclusively exhibited by only men or only women. Both can and do react violently to verbal assault.

If you can point to a behaviot that only one gender exhibits then we can explore the possibility of gendered motivation.

Can you name one behavior that fits?

Again, not what I'm saying. I want to remove the gender-barriers from good behaviors such as these.

There are no gender barriers to staying at home. A man or a woman can stay at home if they choose.

Make it so that a male is more comfortable being a stay at home dad for example.

Then validate the contributions of stay at home men. But there is no gender barriers stopping him from staying at home.

I don't want to apply gender to either side of the equation. But it's always applied to both sides.

Sure you do. You use toxic masculinity as a concept for any behavior by a male you disapprove of but you have not once used positive masculinity in any of your arguments.

Did I advocate for the use of the phrase toxic masculinity? Or did I simply explain what it is and why it exists?

Yes, you keep trying to convince me that toxic masculinity is real while I continue to debunk your assertions with one key fact - all behaviors you cite are not exclusive to one gender.

In order to prove that certain male-specific behaviors are toxic, you first have to prove that they are specific to only males.

Again, you're jumping to conclusions and trying to put words in my mouth.

More ad hominem.

Ideally, we would break down gender to the point that these roles don't exist,

No. I do not agree that the ideal situation is to homogenize the genders. Men and women are different. I see no value in erasing this distinction.

Toxic masculinity exists.

False.

Toxic behavior exists.

True.

Title	What the hell
Author	MaAz1338
Upvotes	43
Comments	25
Date	August 19, 2019 6:09 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/cskw1p/what_the_hell/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-the-hell.1204711 https://theredarchive.com/post/1204711

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