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A Petition for the AHLPA Went Up and This Was a Comment on It

Roosty_Breadman

May 25, 2019

14 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Title	A Petition for the AHLPA Went Up and This Was a Comment on It
Author	Roosty_Breadman
Upvotes	14
Comments	26
Date	May 25, 2019 4:59 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bswrsz/a_petition_for_the_ahlpa_went_up_and_this_was_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-petition-for-the-ahlpa-went-up-and-this-was-a.1206627 https://theredarchive.com/post/1206627

Comments

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 7 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[–]Historybuffman 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]cindymannunu 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

[–]CraaazyClown 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

But society don't seek restitution from both parents? If the pregnant woman wants to keep the child and she names the father, that guy has to pay child support for the next 18 years, even if he never gets to see or actually be a father to the child. In some cases, you don't even have to be biologically related to a child to pay child support, as long as the woman named you the father, long enough time has passed and you thought you were the father.

Women can abort, in most western countries, and if she follows through with the pregnancy, she can leave the child according to the Safe Haven Law. So, even after giving birth, women are given the choice to be a parent or not.

Men never have that option, the choice relies solely on the woman. And personally, that is my problem, give men a choice on par with women. Let men "write off" the child during pregnancy and if the woman still wish to follow through with the pregnancy, then she can make that choice. Who will pay the child support? I don't know, the state for all i care or no one, just leave the man out of it, if he clearly states he don't want to be a father.

A solution i could see to financial abortion could be: The woman have to inform the "sperm donor" before the 12th week (per the current deadline of abortion in my own country) and let him make the choice of being a father or not. If she does not inform the man of her situation before the 12th week, he is exempt from all responsibilities, unless he chooses to be a father to the child at a later time, during the pregnancy.

This way, a woman still have every right to terminate the pregnancy, it's still "her body, her choice" and the man also have a choice. Please, if anyone disagrees with me, i don't mind a discussion or even changing my opinion.

I am all for abortion, if a woman realize she cannot raise a child or is not ready yet, let her remove the fetus, before a certain time, i believe in my country it is 12 weeks. But i have to admit, i find it difficult to care about the current abortion issues in the US, especially when you read articles from feminist giving the same old "don't wanna be a father, don't have sex!".

So until feminists/society/whoever, starts caring about men's right to be a father or not, my answer to the abortion debate is; "don't want a child? Don't have sex". Because that is the same answer you get, when you discuss financial abortion.

[–]cindymannunu 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

But society don't seek restitution from both parents?

Yes, society does, if society has to pay because the parent who is caring for the kid seeks help from society then society will seek restitution, if possible, from the absentee parent (if said parent is fit or has enough money)

If a man doesn't want to risk having a child that society will seek restitution for, he is free to attempt to keep his sperm to himself (rape and theft can negate this) and hope it works.

If a woman doesn't want to risk having a child that society will seek resitution for, she is free to attempt to keep a man from giving her his sperm (rape can negate this) and hope it works, free to attempt to mutilate herself (all current forms of birth control for women can mutiliate her body) and hope it works or attempt abortion (abortion can fail) and hope it works.

Both men and women are free to labor to find ways to counter the choices nature has given them if they are lucky enough to live in a free society, but why should society have to pay for where a man chooses to place his sperm?

> my answer to the abortion debate is; "don't want a child? Don't have sex".

If that's how you feel, yes, you can choose to not have sex with a woman. That's a choice you have, correct. If you choose to have sex with a woman, you risk society making you pay for any child that results from where you choose to place your sperm.

[–]CraaazyClown 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

(if said parent is fit or has enough money)

Nope, the man has to pay up or go to jail, don't matter if he got the money for it.

Both men and women are free to labor to find ways to counter the choices nature has given them if they are lucky enough to live in a free society, but why should society have to pay for where a man chooses to place his sperm?

It doesn't. The woman can get zero benefits from society for all i care, just leave the unwilling father out of it. She chose to become a parent, she alone must stand with the obligations that follow. Government covered child support is an extra service and rests solely on the welfare of the state. In my country it would be covered by the government, but that is a state by state or country by country option.

If that's how you feel, yes, you can choose to not have sex with a woman. That's a choice you have, correct. If you choose to have sex with a woman, you risk society making you pay for any child that results from where you choose to place your sperm.

A man's choice don't matter to society! A man can do everything in his power to not get a woman pregnant, she can go against said precautions and the man is now forced to pay child support. She can pick the damn condom from the trash can and empty it into her vagina. Is that the man choosing to place his sperm in the woman? From what i can gather, he chose to place it in a trash can. Then she chose to pick it up and empty it into her vagina.

[–]cindymannunu 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]cindymannunu 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CraaazyClown 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]cindymannunu 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (23 children) | Copy Link

I don't recall getting upset. I merely stated the case for men and women not having the same control over their own fertility.

There is a flaw in your reasoning. The state does not seek restitution. This suggests that a wrong has been done. The state seeks to ensure that the parents provide for the child.

But this has no bearing on the relative control men and women have other their fertility. In any state in which abortion is legal — and that should be all states, so let us hope that the Supreme Courts strikes down the Alabama and Georgia bills — consent to sex means consent to becoming a parent, if you are a man. If you are a woman, it does not. If it did, then abortion would be illegal, except in cases of rape.

If a woman becomes pregnant, without first having obtained the man's agreement that he wishes to become a father — whether this happens by accident, for instance because of a contraceptive failure, by deception or because she is abusing him — she can force him to take on the responsibilities of parenthood. This includes forcing him, in well over 90% of cases, to financially support her decision to be a mother.

There is a simple a way to remedy this, one that does not infringe in any way on the woman's right to bodily autonomy. Allow men to opt out of parenthood. When a woman learns she is pregnant, she would be legally obliged to inform the father or potential fathers. He would have until a set time before the local abortion to limit to indicate whether or not he wishes to acknowledge parental responsibility.

If the father does accept parental responsibility, then regardless of marital or relationship status both parents have joint custody. Where the parents do not live together, if there is a non-residential parent then he or she is obliged to financially support the residential parent, with the level of support determined by the court, as it is today. Clearly, if there is doubt about paternity, then the case should be settled by a DNA test.

If the father does not accept parental responsibility, then the mother will have 100% custody and the father no parental rights but also no parental responsibility. In this knowledge, the woman can then decide whether or not she wishes to abort the pregnancy or become a single mother. She still has complete bodily autonomy and she is able to make a decision on what to do in full knowledge of her circumstances. But she can only make that decision for herself, not for someone else.

This would give men at least some measure of control over their fertility. And for women, it would mean that society had finally added the missing clause to the statement "my body, my choice" — "my body, my choice, my responsibility".

[–]cindymannunu -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

"If a child exists, I don't see why society shouldn't ensure that both it's parents (if fit and not raped) pay for it's care if society has to pay for it, because a child can't exist without both parent's gamates causing it to exist."

But the child can exist without the consent of both parents. If the woman does not consent to becoming a parent, the man cannot force her to. She can abort. In many states a woman can even give up a child for adoption without the father's knowledge or consent. If the man does not consent to becoming a parent, the woman can force him to. And can then force him to pay for her decision. She controls him.

If a woman is to have complete control over the decision whether or not the child will exist, then she should also bear the final responsibility. Giving a man the choice to opt out of being a parent is far less radical than terminating the pregnancy. And the woman would still have the option to abort, so the child need not exist at all, if she feels she cannot support it.

[–]cindymannunu -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]cindymannunu -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (18 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

"You don't have a point."

You're getting very emotional. That's usually a sign that someone is becoming aware of cognitive dissonance and it's starting to upset them. Do you want to stop?

"No one person can make society do anything."

This is not a pro-abortion argument. It is simply an argument for "might makes right".

Society did not consent to the baby being born. Therefore no one has the right to force society to pay for it. And no one can.

The father did not consent to the baby being born. By your logic, no one has any more right to force him to pay for it than to force society as a whole to pay for it. But collectively we can force him to, so we do.

This is a raw exercise of power, with nothing moral or just about it.

"Abortions can fail. Please read the entire post before commenting on it."

I did read the entire post. But your point is not relevant. Fewer than 0.23% of first-trimester abortions fail. And even then, assuming that the woman cannot try again in the second trimester because of local law, the prospective mother can put the child up for adoption. The father still has no say in any of this and certainly no right to refuse parental responsibility in the way the mother can.

As for reading all the post before commenting: there are parts of my posts you're not commenting on. But I am not hectoring you in that tone.

[–]cindymannunu 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]DJ-Roukan 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Elegabalus 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DJ-Roukan 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GmanTEM 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Crazycatgirl16 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sexuallettuce69 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link