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The Red Pill, You & Morality - (Full version, I hit the Reddit character limit on my original thread)

IllimitableMan

May 19, 2015
110 upvotes
/r/TheRedPill
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Post Information
Title The Red Pill, You & Morality - (Full version, I hit the Reddit character limit on my original thread)
Author

IllimitableMan

Upvotes 110
Comments 33
Date May 19, 2015 12:05 AM UTC
(11 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/36fj32/the_red_pill_you_morality_full_version_i_hit_the/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/the-red-pill-you-morality-full-version-i-hit-the.227189
https://theredarchive.com/post/227189
Red Pill terms in post
the red pill
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Comments

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here is a preview of a rawer form of the article with accompanying commentary in the original thread:

/r/TheRedPill/comments/36dhaj/the_red_pill_you_morality/

I've created this link thread to ensure those who caught the original thread early don't miss out on the full article. I wrote a lot more when I wrote the original article, but I had to cut it down because I hit the 15,000 character limit Reddit enforces for threads. Rather than do another comment and risk it getting buried in OP, I opted to make life simpler and do an article on the topic. Enjoy.

[–]semondemon24 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to decrease the net suffering in the world by showing to some that just because a tool is amoral does not mean what you do with it is.

PS: you still never answered my question from the previous thread.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you still never answered my question from the previous thread.

What was your question? I had 86 reddit notifications yesterday.

[–]Varrian 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think this is getting a bit out of hand here. This is about personal principles and what applies to one may not apply to another. I, for instance, will knowingly fuck another man's girlfriend but I will not knowingly fuck another man's wife. The boundary where you stop, or do not stop, is entirely subjective.

I have said this before and I would like to reiterate: know that there are men out there that do not operate with the same set of rules that you do.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have said this before and I would like to reiterate: know that there are men out there that do not operate with the same set of rules that you do.

I'm not sure if you realise, but we agree.

Moral principles aren’t blue pill. Thinking that everyone has the same principles as you, and that most people don’t succumb (or even value) incentive over principle, is.

[–]PookIsLovePookIsLife 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Thought provoking article and great discussion in the original thread. This is why I love TRP.

[–]Code_Bordeauxx 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And the fact I see this downvoted is why I sometimes have my doubts.

[–]Code_Bordeauxx 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I consider this one of the most important written pieces. It is the bridge between RP philosophy and real world application of this theory. This had to be written, but you see the backlash it gets. Only the most prominent of RP writers can get such a message across without it being burried immediately, so I'm glad you took it upon yourself to write this article. How's the book coming along?

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the support. The book is still quite preliminary in its form.

[–]Idareyou2downvoteme 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

For those of you who missed it the other day, this post was directly inspired by this comment thread: https://archive.is/4aaTp

[–]trplurker 0 points0 points0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And those posters were 100% correct. No amount of white knighting / bro knighting will change that. It's the women who chooses to cheat, not the man who fucks some random girl, that takes responsibility. Men are not responsible for women fucking random men, that is 100% the female nature and no amount of "But mah MORALES!!!" will change that.

IM is just trying to shame men into obeying his own morale code against fucking random women who happened to convince some idiot to commit to her.

In fact I'll quote another TRP endorsed contributor who has just as much time around here as myself and IM.

@JP_Whoregan

I've played the part of "home wrecker" and I don't give two minuscule fucks whether I have your respect or not. What thick-skulled white knights like you will never understand is that once a wife has made the decision to step out on her husband, she's going to do it, one way or another. If it's not with you, it will be with the guy behind you, next to you, or across from you. It is not incumbent upon me to uphold and defend a marriage contract that I am not a signatory to. For fucks sake, I've fucked married women before who didn't even tell me they were married until three weeks in! What am I supposed to do? Un-fuck them? Here, take this polish. Your armor needs it.

[–]throwaway122487 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

IM is just trying to shame men into obeying his own morale code against fucking random women who happened to convince some idiot to commit to her.

It's not his own moral code, it's the Golden/Silver Rules. They are the only objective moralities that exist. Humans are both an empathetic and intelligent species, therefore morality arose as an intelligent, high level language interpretation of the emotion of empathy. Specifically, the Golden and Silver Rules are empathy defined in logical terms. They are our innate sense of right and wrong.

Without those rules, morality breaks down to nothing by definition. They are the only objective moralities that exist. All morality beyond them is subjective. So morality is subjective, given that the Golden/Silver Rules are being abided by. Just look at how fucked up the human condition is. Almost all of our problems can be traced back to one or more people ignoring the Golden/Silver Rules.

If men shamed women for their bad behavior, then it would happen way less often. Just as society as a whole used to shame women for riding the CC and getting pregnant out of wedlock, no welfare state to support them, no birth control pills, etc. Women rode the CC less as a result of those societal pressures. The feminist movement changed all of that and it enabled female hypergamy on a new level.

You and /u/JP_Whoregan are endorsing the idea that it's OK for men to be objectively immoral (Golden/Silver Rules) for the sake of getting pussy. There is no way for a man to put pussy any higher on the pedestal than to be willing to sacrifice the most fundamental morals to get it. That's the most beta blue pill mindset I can think of.

[–]Billybob25112 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You want to know what's even more bluepill? Trying to drag a guy's SMV down because he's better than you.

[–]TRP VanguardJP_Whoregan -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That's all cute and all, but I'd posit that you are operating from the blue pill/plugged-in notion that we can "change the world" and "make the world a better place". Oh, if only all the men started to shame all of the slut-wives out there into staying loyal to their husbands, then the world would be all rainbows and Reeces Pieces.

One of the fundamental foundations of RP thought is that we are not trying to change women or their behaviors. We are simply learning to adapt to the world as it is today.

Golden/Silver rules? C'mon, man. If society abided by the GR, the divorce rate would be near 0%, not topping out at 55%. Today's women long ago discarded the GR in favor of the "get what's mine" rule. I'm just doing the same. I ain't pedestalizing shit.

[–]Tainted_OneX 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

What thick-skulled white knights like you will never understand is that once a wife has made the decision to step out on her husband, she's going to do it, one way or another.

Mental gymnastics here mate. Let's assume for a second that a guy in my friends group can steal $20k from his neighbor with a zero percent chance of getting caught. He is most definitely going to go through with it but he needs the help of another person so he asks me. However, If I say no he will simply ask our other friend who will definitely help him.

Either way the money is going to get stolen from the neighbor, but I'm still not going to help him because it's simply wrong to do. Why is it that when you put pussy into the mix all of the sudden it's okay to be immoral? The only answer I can come up with is because you put the pussy on a pedestal and sacrifice your integrity as a man to achieve it.

Regardless, I really don't judge guys who have sex with married women, and I would hope they wouldn't judge me for not wanting to do so, but at the end of the day, I really don't give a fuck.

[–]Turkerthelurker1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you help a friend steal, that is you being an accomplice to stealing. Essentially, you have stolen too, and been "immoral."

If I am single and sleep with some guys gf, I do not think I am the one acting "immorally." I am not breaking my agreement with anybody or governing laws.

I get your point, and I even agree it is not worth the effort or risk to fuck a taken woman. But to make the comparison that this is somehow pedestalizing the woman is ridiculous.

And I find it rather funny that you decided to make this point by comparing the woman to property, an inanimate object, being stolen. When in fact, this object simply decided to fuck someone else.

[–]Turkerthelurker0 points 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If you help a friend steal, that is you being an accomplice to stealing. Essentially, you have stolen too, and been "immoral."

If I am single and sleep with some guys gf, I do not think I am the one acting"immorally." I am not breaking my agreement with anybody or governing laws.

I get your point, and I even agree it is not worth the effort or risk to fuck a taken woman. But to make the comparison that this is somehow pedestal using the woman is ridiculous.

And I find it rather funny that you decided to make this point by comparing the woman to property, an inanimate object, being stolen. When in fact, this object simply decided to fuck someone else.

[–]TRP VanguardJP_Whoregan 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I even agree it is not worth the effort or risk to fuck a taken woman.

The hot ones are always "taken". Maybe not married, but "taken". Most women I know are indeed "branch swingers"; they will not leave an old boyfriend/fuckbuddy until they firmly have hold of a new one.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you are waiting around to only approach "single" women, you're severely limiting your pool.

[–]throwaway122487-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you're not trying to change women or their behaviors, then you wouldn't be discouraging men to LTR a slut. Refusing to LTR with sluts shames them and puts pressure on women to not be slutty.

If every man applied RP thinking, you can bet that it would most certainly change the behavior of women. So even if RP doesn't intend to try to change female behavior, it does. The existence of /r/redpillwomen is proof because those are women who are consciously changing their behavior to be more Redpill.

The intentions of TRP are irrelevant; the only things that matter are the consequences. And the consequences of TRP are obviously a change in the behavior of both men and women.

Today's women long ago discarded the GR in favor of the "get what's mine" rule. I'm just doing the same. I ain't pedestalizing shit.

Thinking like women is what blue pill white knights do.

[–]trplurker-1 points 11 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

There is no way for a man to put pussy any higher on the pedestal than to be willing to sacrifice the most fundamental morals to get it.

This is your projection. You do not get to dictate to myself, or any other man, what our own decisions and beliefs should be. No amount of shaming or head nodding will alter this. You are doing nothing but attempting to shame me into complying with your belief, "A real man does X" and so forth. You threaten to withhold your validation and approval unless I submit to your beliefs.

Thankfully I've long since passed the point where I need any form of validation from yourself or anyone else for that matter. I would gladly walk with a smile, down a street with thousands of angry, belligerent, insulting, scornful men, knowing full well that I chose my own beliefs and am completely happy with them.

[–]TRP VanguardJP_Whoregan -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Agree 100%. This is the the "No True Scotsman" fallacy at work. "No true RedPiller fucks married women". Whether or not one man wants to uphold and defend another man's marriage contract is not RP, and it is not anti-RP. RP is about sexual strategy, and therefore devoid of moral equivalency or judgement. If a man wants to decline married women, fine. But he's best keeping his morals to himself.

[–]trplurker -6 points-6 points-6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because of where you host, none of your articles are available while I'm at work. So gotta wait till I get home to read anything.

Just finished reading it via alternative means and the short answer is, you are very wrong.

The long answer is that there is no such thing as morals or principles. Those are fictional constructs men in power create in order to rule lesser men and women. Those morals and principles never apply to the man in power as he is above them. Your trying to convince a bunch of men to do something that is not in their best interest, that is in itself immoral if the person doing the convincing understands that. Social contracts, which is what you are calling "morals and principles" only exist so long as they benefit those involved equally. Once they no longer benefit someone, that person does away with that contract in order to advantage himself over everyone else.

We can have this long debate but history has already proven that laws exist to be broken and are frequently broken by those in power. If something as concrete as written law can be so easily broken, then ephemeral things like "morals and principles" become meaningless outside of intellectual and moral masturbation. And worst of all, in your attempt to shame other RPers into following your moral of "don't fuck taken women", you removed all responsibility from the women. The onus rests on her, not the third party man, to chose not to pursue other men.

I expected much better work from you.

[–]semondemon24 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You are confusing one's personal morals with society's view of what is wrong and what is right. Two very different things.

[–]trplurker 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I just reread it to make sure I didn't miss anything and my statement still stands. His entire article was shaming men into buying into his own moral standard. This is no different the feminists saying we should "man up" and buy into their moral system. His entire first few paragraphs are basically telling how shitty guys without morals are and how they aren't real men. I would expect that kind of shit on Jezebel or huffington, not on TRP. IM should be very ashamed for creating such a piece, especially considering how good his previous ones are.

[–]semondemon24 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

He is not saying follow his morals. He is saying follow your own. "pick" what you want from TRP. TRP is reality, a tool, almost a weapon that can do harm. It is up to you to do what you want. But don't pretend that it is amoral because the knife itself is amoral. If you destroy a family because of how you chose to use that weapon, don't pretend that your act was amoral. You may have your own morals, and maybe your moral compass tells you it is good or bad, but don't fool yourself into thinking it is amoral. You increased the suffering in the world.

PS: I appreciate you reading it again.

[–]trplurker 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

He is not saying follow his morals.

Yes he is. That's the part that makes it shit.

You can choose not to be a snake and not betray a man you respect because you are a man of principle. You can choose not to fuck another man's girl, whether he's a close friend or not because one of the principles you follow in your life is the golden rule:

"I wouldn't want a guy fucking my girl, so I won't fuck another guy's girl." Or "do unto others as they do unto you"

Moral principles aren't blue pill. Thinking that everyone has the same principles as you, and that most people don't succumb (or even value) incentive over principle, is.

Modern men who prioritize sex and utilitarianism above principles; men who prioritise incentives over an innate sense of justice we all possess don't want to hear that.

They don't want to observe another man's moral code, one that holds that man to a higher standard of behaviour than he subjects himself to. Because for the ruthless Machiavellian, the pragmatist, justice is an obstruction to his desires.

And it goes on and on, about how guys "without morals" are bad and guys "with morals" are good, specifically the moral to "not fuck another mans women".

As someone who's achieved the level of self awareness that I can now reprogram my own subconscious rule sets, I know exactly what he's talking about. You all agree wholeheartedly with it because you wish for it to be true. You badly want a world where you don't need to worry about your women leaving you and fucking another man because no other man would fuck her. Instead of putting the onus of that decision on the women, you instead wish to put it on other men. Like I said, I could go on into very detailed descriptions of how this works in your own head, but the short version is that he's wrong and it doesn't work that way.

[–]semondemon24 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

To be quite frank, I am more interested in your view rather than the argument itself. What kind of self-awareness are we talking about here? What did you do to get there? Do you practice meditation daily or are you just very observant of your own thoughts?

These are real questions I have. I appreciate you taking the time to write all of this.

To your point about "wish for it to be true". I do not think that is it at all. I have accepted the fact that humans are animals, women or men. I am an animal as well. But I can be aware of my animal thoughts and take control of my animal mind that tempts me and controls me.

[–]trplurker2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Before anything I say makes sense there are some things you need to understand first. There are three basic levels of consciousness, the conscious, the subconscious and the unconscious.

The unconscious are actions and instincts your brain does without needing any sort of input from you. You don't need to think to breath, to walk, for your heat to beat, for your hormones to be regulated, for insulin to be administered, for metabolism to happen. All those natural components of your body are connected to your unconsciousness, it's a machine and has no will or desire of it's own.

The subconscious is the ancient animal you, it compromises most of your non-automatic brain activity and is responsible for taking sensory input, comparing it to historical memory and instincts, then formulating an emotional answer and communicating that emotion to your conscious. The subconscious has it's own desires, it's own goals, and ultimately it's what is really controlling you. All your emotions, your fears, desires, joys, depressions, all of it is controlled by your subconscious. It is alive, active and communicating with you every moment of every day, most humans are completely unaware of this happening and go about their lives with the illusion they are in charge of themselves.

Finally the conscious is the rational thinking mind. It's one of our last evolutionary developments and possibly one of our greatest. It's the conscious mind that can grasp intangible abstract thoughts. It takes the emotional feedback from the subconscious, and then decides "what to do about it". The consciousness doesn't have full control over the human mind, it only acts as the executive agent with veto power that can be overridden by either the subconscious or the unconscious. A human can try to consciously hold their breath and suffocate themselves, but eventually the unconscious will override them and return to regular breathing. In extreme situations the conscious mind can shut down and the subconscious take over and react according to it's programing.

To illustrate we'll take the situation of a child and a fire. Child see's fire, doesn't know what it is, only that it's pretty and wants to touch it. This is what happens.

Unconscious: My eyes see a bright object, my skin feels warmth from it

Subconscious: I have no reference to that object, the warmth and brightness is associated with positive feelings.

Conscious: I perceive bright pleasant looking object, I wish to touch that object

After touching it

Unconscious: Skin receiving damage, nerves communicate possible extreme damage if kept in contact

Subconscious: This is unpleasant, dangerous and painful, generating negative emotions to prevent this from happening again, connecting negative emotions to newly acquired memory of bright warm object. Creating rule to avoid future contact with dangerous object.

Conscious: OUCH!, That hurt, I'm NEVER touching that again.

That's basically how that entire interaction went. The child now has a negative emotion attached to the memory object of "fire" which is composed of subobjects of warmth and light. Eventually it'll have smell added to it along with taste and then a positive emotion related to keeping warm at night and cooking food. Eventually the memory object of "fire" will become very complex and linked to many other memory objects that are acquired and build through the life of the human, but unless deliberately removed that negative emotion will still remain. Those negative emotions don't always need to be experienced first hand to be linked, witnessing others experience things can also be used to create emotional links. The link won't be as strong, but it will exist and serve it's function. Our brains are full of those objects and emotional links that create rules. All our insecurities, all our reactions, our behaviors, all of them are governed by these links and rules that exist in our subconsciousness.

In order to start actively reading ones own subconsciousness you need to get very good at asking uncomfortable questions. Whenever you feel something, the natural instinct is to just "go with it", rather then to stop and analyze it to find it's source. This is understandable as consciously stopping to analyze the fear of the big predator behind you would generally result in death. But still you need to learn to stop and take a long hard look at your own emotional reactions. Whenever you feel something, anything, first ask yourself "why am I feeling this", follow the emotion back to whatever memory or input it's connected to. Then you can observe that memory, which will cause your subconsciousness to regenerate the input that created the link, the pain of touching the fire so to speak. This is a form of "reliving your memories" but in a controlled state, you can observe the process. Once you get good enough at deconstructing links you can start deleting them or making new ones. That last part is incredibly difficult and takes years of practice as your subconsciousness really doesn't want to let you do that. It's going to fight you tooth and nail, but enough introspection and meditation and you can eventually conquer it. This can't happen until you've had a very long conversation with it though, it's a hard conversation because your subconscious is animal, primal and extremely uncaring. It's only purpose is to protect itself and procreate whenever possible.

Anyhow this is stuff that is incredibly hard to describe with someone who hasn't started doing it. There just isn't really the language for it.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I thought the article was a solid piece on a difficult subject. I didn't agree with every statement, but I do agree the Golden Rule is a foundation for cooperative behavior.

Morality is situational. How people behave at work is very different from when they're in the social arena. The frame and rules of conduct at work create expectations and boundaries. In a social setting, primal behavior is unchecked, encouraging pure self-interest.

Family control is limited. Religious control is obsolete. Mate control has been flipped on its head (guys are the bitches)... In hiring women, I find a strong moral compass attracts good candidates, and evntually exposes the flaky and manipulative ones who hate playing things straight.

[–]trplurker 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Morality is situational.

This can not be true. Either you have a set of rules or you don't, the rules themselves can not be situationally imposed, otherwise they aren't rules and are instead excuses for your actions. Humans are very guilty of this, they like to create reasons to justify the actions they do.

I didn't agree with every statement, but I do agree the Golden Rule is a foundation for cooperative behavior.

The "golden rule" never existed, ever. It's an abstract concept invented by top tribal leadership to control the lessor men, it's never applied to those with real power.

It should read

"Do unto others as they do unto you, unless it's inconvenient then do whatever is required to win", or just "Do whatever is required to win". Sometimes this involves playing well with others, sometimes it involves having others be your pawns.

That is how every single leader in history has been successful. There isn't a single successful leader that followed the "golden rule". Look around society, you think those with power got there by being nice? You think they got there by playing along? No, they took what they wanted, they played the game and manipulated their way into power. The 48 laws, Art of War and every other political text is VERY clear about this. "All war is deception" doesn't just apply to army vs army warfare but to every other aspect of life. The battle doesn't stop, the only future peace has is war, there is only individual rest when ones dies. This is the only universal law, the law of the jungle, everything else is imaginary fluff we create to make ourselves feel better.

Anyhow IM is very knowledgeable in the 48 laws, he can't possible not see how hypocritical he's being and originally I though this was a joke article to see how many idiots will blindly follow anything written by a reputable man.

[–]semondemon24 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I disagree with you. What if your morals is to mitigate or decrease the amount of suffering in the world? Then it is situational.

I would also add that you are not wrong about anything you are saying. What I am saying is that there is a choice. 48 laws of powers, TRP, they are both windows in which we can view the world. Perhaps they are the correct reality.

I have a co-worker who is clearly a sheep being eaten by a wolf. It is very similar to the 48 laws of power's quote - either play the game or get played.

But what if you are aware of the game and tactics of others but use it as a defend yourself rather than a means to get ahead? Is that not a third option?

[–]trplurker1 points 11 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Then it is situational.

No it's not. Rules must be universal or they do not exist.

"mitigate or decrease the amount of suffering in the world" Is not a moral, it's wishful thinking to make yourself look good. The following would be a moral.

"Always commit your actions to mitigate or decrease the amount of suffering in the world"

That is a morale and when applied across the board you become a Buddhist monk. From that point on every action you take must be with the intent to reduce the amount of suffering in the world, no exceptions.

It's the no exceptions part that differentials a moral philosophy and a conveniently good sounding excuse.

[–]pennyscan 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are a lot of true shades between the absolutes of black and white. Equally, with our thoughts and beliefs.

The art of war etc. will be wise knowledge to learn and believe in, if your primary aesthetic is to win at all costs.

Some people do not share this aesthetic. They take more pleasure and satisfaction when most people win, and few if any lose. They use empathy as a source for their inner joy.

So they will sacrifice the profits from theft, so that society is a better place for everyone to live in. Even without state retaliation, they will refrain from stealing.

It is not because they are any better or more moral than the psychopath, the sociopath or those with the me first aesthetic. It is simply that different things make them feel good inside. And it's these aesthetics that drive their pleasure, their self pride, and their will to cooperate for the greater good. They prefer to identify and sacrifice for the bigger picture than the immediate self.

Any preference. Any preference.... Whether genetic or social in origin. Whether conscious or subconscious. Whether for apples, oranges, justice, fairness, beauty, winning, strength... They are just personal aesthetics. Belief preferences backed by emotion.

And it is an error to assume most people prioritise the 'win at all cost' aesthetic.

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