wtf guy/gals?!

AnarchyshitpostBOT · 2017-07-15T16:15:02+00:00

Thank you for posting and I am sure this is coming from a good place.

That said, I think that overall this approach is not very productive when it comes to de-programming redpills or providing a constructive environment for exredpills.

I've been in and around the red pill for 4 years. In 2012 I read the Game and within a few months was a member of TRP. I was there for about a year-year and a half and then became disillusioned due to red pill thinking putting me in a couple really fucked up situations. Afterwords, I went to the blue pill for a while, but also became a semi-regular at PPD. Finally it wasn't until about this time last year that I gave it up for good, due to lots of things in my personal life changing. Now, the only men's issues pages I visit is here, which I see as giving back, and r/menslib.

I've been thinking for a long time about not just what TRP is (many users here and elsewhere have done a great job at dismantling that) but also why so many young men find TRP appealing. I really do think that if we want to challenge TRP, it's not enough to just be right or to be supportive; we need to find ways to reach out to these men as men and really get down to the real reasons they are interested in TRP.

The problem with your post is that it fails to both understand TRP, and understand why (some) men find TRP appealing. TRP is not a tool for men to learn to be better men, or to heal emotional scars, or to learn confidence. Many TRP men may claim some bullshit like "well TRP gives me great advice!" when talking to outsiders but if you read between the lines it's obvious that is not the case. If TRP was just about living a better life, why would they focus so much on sexuality and dating and not other aspects of a better life (such as family or friendships)? Sure TRP preaches physical health but it's always in service of the larger goal, which is social and sexual success. If TRP was just about healing, men would be lining up for psychotherapy, not the gym and the clubs. Further, many believers argue TRP is the only way; attempting to steer them towards more mainstream sources (like Men's Health) is a total failure. So what makes TRP different? What garners the intense loyalty? It's not like men are getting viciously territorial over their therapist's office, or their protein shakes. TRP offers men something extra, a premium, something that they feel they can't get anywhere else. To understand this premium, it helps to understand men a bit better.

Sociologists today generally accept that gender is something that is created and performed, rather than something innate. While it is true that most people are born with one set of sexual organs or another, one is not born a "man" but rather a boy, and becomes a man by coming to embody certain traits that the larger society deems as important to posses. Now we can debate whether this is solely imposed by society or if there is some biologically innate need to do this but it is irrelevant; the point is that men, as part of their psychological development, need to have a "coming of age" that separates boyhood from adulthood. In other societies, this is usually pretty explicit; many societies engage in ritualistic hazing where men of a certain age are required to live in the wild for a time, or take psychedelic drugs, or undergo a body modification (such as tattooing or circumcision) or whatever. The point of these rituals is that it clearly states, to both the community and the aspiring man that childhood is over, and adulthood has began.

In our society, this ritual is usually tied to becoming a provider and taking on a degree of responsibility, that is to say, becoming the head of a household. This was previously explicitly tied to sexuality; pre-marital sex was forbidden before the sexual revolution, so to "have" a woman was a mark of being responsible enough to have a home. Those days are long behind us, but the cultural conflation of sex = adult = man has mostly stayed, in a warped form. This is why the obsession with virginity (as touted on r/incel and other pits of slime) is so prevalent among men today; many men have internalized the idea that to be a complete person, they need to be sexually active. This impulse is extremely strong in our society and permeates many different layers of it. To describe our society as sex obsessed would be both extremely accurate and missing the point; rather, our society is obsessed with the idea that sex makes the man, and therefore, men are obsessed with getting sex. I want to be clear however, the actual act of sex is irrelevant; what matters is the ability to command sex, to have access to sex, to have the mostly attractive sexual partners possible; simply having sex with a prostitute is not enough in this regard, as by paying for it, the man is circumventing the true reason for desiring sex in the first place, which is to establish his position in the social hierarchy. This is not to knock sex workers (or your typical John, who as I understand tend to be either fetishists, unhibitted Dude's, or older men, I.e all people that actually do want the act or the company); I'm simply trying to explain why incels and other complainers refuse to just "lose it" to a sex worker. If anything, following that advice would probably be more damaging to an incel's psychodevelopment as it would assert that they are so fundamentally shitty that they have to pay somebody to do it.

And that is the key thing I think we need to keep in mind when dealing with TRP. Many men have internalized the idea that their standing, both with other men and but more importantly, with themselves, is predicated on their ability to "get" sex and attention from women. Sexual success, often and with attractive women, signals to many young men that they are cool, masculine, "alpha", the best. Sexual failure, or total sexual non-participation, signals to young men that they are failures, feminine, "beta"; in short, losers. This is a narrative that is seeded in men well before the TRP stage; from Trump's locker-room talk to the infamous 1-10 rating scale, men (especially as teenagers) are explicitly told time and again that their value as a man and as a person is directly tied to their ability to command sex and sexuality. Failure to do so signals their failure to transition out of childhood and into adulthood, to live up to the requirements of their culture. What makes the stereotype of the "virgin neck beard watching anime in his mom's basement" so biting is not the components themselves (everyone is a virgin at some point, everyone lives with their parents at some point, cartoons are extremely popular); it's the implication of all the pieces together: this adult male has not grown up, he hasn't found his place, he has no power, no responsibility, he is a loser, he is unfit to participate in general adult society.

This is what the premium in TRP is, and why is has been exploding since it was discovered. TRP is fantastic at tapping into that element male psychology as a base on which to build the rest of it's ideological structure.

First, TRP agrees with everything the new comer already believes: Not all men are equal, some men get more sexual attention than others, men who don't get sexual attention are lesser than those who do. Then, TRP goes one step further; it asks: "what if I knew a secret way to get more sexual attention?" That is where the "Red Pill" comes from; initiates, by discovering TRP, are discovering the secret "scientific" knowledge that governs female sexuality. These secrets, combined with a rigorous self improvement program, will allow them to "get" sex and by extension, (re)claim their manhood, which to this point has been denied or set into a subordinate (beta) position by their failure to command sex.

Once you recognize this, everything in TRP starts to make sense; their obsession with "value", their deep contempt with the beta male, their hatred of feminism, the weird jargon and pseudoscience; it's all an attempt to either maintain the illusion of "secret" knowledge, or to maintain the narrative that to be a man is to fuck. Many TRP critics think that TRP is abusive and the ideology is the cover, but I actually think that it is the exact opposite; the desire to harness and control other's sexuality inevitably leads to abuse, as abuse is one of the only consistent ways to maintain control in a relationship predicated on taking what you can.

And I think this is where your advice falls short. We as confident adults, recognize that the vast majority of people are pretty damaged and that we're more or less on our own to sort our shit out (which is a less flowery way of saying what you have said). I mostly agree with it. But the average TRP user is working from a completely different base. The statements you have made completely glaze over the relationship between adulthood, masculinity and sexuality, which is why it will fall on mostly death ears. TRP already recognizes they are losers; the problem, in their mind, is that some people aren't losers, and those are the people they wish to become, i.e. to become real men. They haven't realized yet that to be a "man" is essentially an empty archetype that can mean anything; to them, it's a specific nexus of traits and experiences, predicated on biology and reinforced by society. What this nexus actually is, ironically, doesn't matter; Conan the Barbarian can sit side by side with Steve Jobs in the hall of men. All that matters is that this nexus exists, and that with enough effort, you too can come to embody it; if you work out enough and run game enough, you can be Chad. That's what we're up against.

P2 coming, replied to this comment

Title	wtf guy/gals?!
Author	Haccordian
Upvotes	13
Comments	8
Date	July 15, 2017 9:05 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/6nf0bc/wtf_guygals/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/wtf-guygals.300225 https://theredarchive.com/post/300225

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