Is the concept of Alpha vs Beta males outdated? Should we even be focusing on these labels when it comes to improving ourselves?

2016-01-11T15:51:16+00:00

The way PUA use alpha-beta terms is a fucking joke and if I'm happy with them struggling with compreehending the world with these terms is because it makes easier to spot sociopaths douchebags.

Or in other worlds "god did not give wings to snakes". That would be a dragon. A chinese dragon. Which does not exist.

Greetings1 · 2016-01-11T15:18:46+00:00

I absolutely agree. I have never seen these pua videos and shit but your statement still stands: these labels of beta and alpha are as idiotic as "middle class" and "upper class" or educated vs "uneducated". Its all so relative its not worth discussing. Does a degree automatically mean you are smart? No. There are dumbassrs with degrees. Does a person who makes 38000 a year lower class just because a bitch thinks hes too poor to support her and her brood. Absolutely not. Alpha and beta are terms designed to confuse men and make us either consult females or other white knights on where we belong on the ladder or sit and ponder how women "dig our vibes". Categorizing men is what women do best and honesty, all they really know how to do when it comes to dating/marriage. Deeper elements of intimacy, assuming they exist, simply don't register to them.

I give off absolutely zero so called "alpha" vibes in terms of dominance abd physical strength. I also don't give a swimming shit about women's opinions in terms of smv and dating. My ex gf thought I was a wimp and pushover because I don't enjoy fighting. I wasn't her "good little alpha dog". But I also make more money than many of my peers, taken hold over the direction of my career and dont negotiate, and don't take people's shit at work or at home. Am I alpha or am I beta? That question has the same level of intelligence as "can you smell the color nine". Fuck labels. Improve yourself for you.

2016-01-11T17:07:06+00:00

These terms are useless because they are terms that label men based upon female perspective. They are not applicable to other metrics, ones that actually matter.

I don't allow other people to categorize me as "alpha, " "beta," or any other Greek letter. I know that I am above average in certain metrics and below average in others, just like everyone else. I live my life in such a way that capitalizes on my strengths while minimalizing the effects of my weaknesses. Why would one specific category label me as alpha or beta, and why would I let someone else choose this category?

mgtowguynow · 2016-01-11T22:19:00+00:00

Another petty label used by confused people who are in desperate need for some form of an identity.

Mgtowredpillonroids · 2016-01-11T15:28:37+00:00

" I don't want to be a sociopathic douchebag that takes advantage of other humans for personal gains and show no sympathy."

There you've got your definition of alpha. Take a look at nature. An alpha dominates others for his own personal gain (better access to food) and reproductive success (more accessible females), not much else.

The "natural alpha" notion came into being because there are people who have a great affinity for charme and amassing social capital. This is essentially nothing but a form of power and power is something people universally respect. It's also a socially respected form of being "alpha". The question is: Who are you trying to impress? Qui bono? Are you doing it for yourself or are you chasing external validation? Are you a narcissist looking for supply or are you a self-sufficient man?

There's some usefulness in the dichotomy, however, imo it doesn't have a lot of benefits for the MGTOW lifestyle. When MGTOW use the term "beta" what it seems to depict (as I understand it) is a type of wimpy doormat male who is effeminate and who has no boundaries, nor does he have the mental capacity of achieving such boundaries ("frame"). An alpha then would be the opposite of such a person.

As you rightly pointed out, there are too many definitions making their way around the internet. MGTOW refuse societal pressures of conforming to a certain in-group ideal. We define our own terms of what is "alpha" or "beta" so to say. But it's kind of a futile endeavour wondering whether something you did or want to do is "alpha" or "beta". Who the fuck cares? If you're truly GYOW then what matters is if you achieve your goals or not and whether or not you're living up to your OWN expectations. Basically nothing else matters, really.

LearnFromTheDruid · 2016-01-11T20:17:37+00:00

I think you have mistaken us for the Red Pill subreddit.

AdolfSchmitler · 2016-01-11T21:00:42+00:00

I feel like it's a false dichotomy. Most people exhibit qualities of both

j_arbuckle2012 · 2016-01-11T22:39:48+00:00

It's a fake dichotomy used to illustrate what is and isn't considered attractive in a given situation. PUA groupies (like those found in the comments) tend to be super spergs who don't understand that simple fact.

It is entirely false and after you understand why these terms are being used you should stop using them immediately. Do what is right for you in your own way, and remember that AWALT.

RandolphTheWarlock · 2016-01-12T05:46:46+00:00

It's important to note that there has been a radical shift in male social standing. It basically looks like this:

1950's Alpha is 2016's Beta
1950's Beta is 2016's Omega
1950's Omega is 2016's Alpha.

1950's Alpha - foundation of patriarchy, lifetime job slave, woman worshipper. He's a beta cuck today, scraping by on leftovers and child support payments.

1950's Beta - socially awkward and thoroughly average yes man type. In the past still got married and had kids, but today he's basically a TFL omega.

1950's Omega - bad boy womanizer with criminal leanings. Used to be shunned and communities worked hard to keep young women away from him so that he'd just rot on a chain gang instead of fathering bastards all over the place. Today, women worship him. He's top dog.

When you keep these changes in mind, today's environment makes a little more sense and you can keep things in a clearer context.

DforDeadpool · 2016-01-11T15:27:38+00:00

To me, no need to hamster a lot. It has more or less evolved to lover vs provider, rather than alpha vs beta. PUA has something to do with this either. Because for years they preached to men that they could just get laid without having high SMV, a solid social circle, alpha male traits and etcetera. They preach that by imitating the Chad behaviour, they can get laid easily, without actually becoming Chad. And they somehow perfected their ways to make it happen. When a "beta boy" with a PUA mindset hits on 100 girls and sleeps with two or three of them, ta da, he just gotten laid without improving himself! He just got laid without being alpha. So he doesn't see the point to become alpha. He'd rather hit on 1000 girls. It is harmful and toxic but it is the way it is.

Also, it's indeed possible to be alpha without being a dick. Just, you have to selectively be a dick in situations that calls for it. Be a smart dick. Like the guy in the video, who threatens the PUA. The GYM guys you've mentioned are getting laid because of their affinity with the Dark Triad, assuming you've heard it before. Dark Triad traits imply higher chance of survival, thus, it make "an attractive male". Thus, creates more tingles. It's like an attraction hack. But it's even possible to get laid by "sweet guy game", if you have high SMV. SMV is everything. As for my advice, don't disregard the whole alpha/beta/omega stuff, just keep it in your head just for case. And get higher SMV. Chad can get away with anything. So when you become Chad, you can say and do anything as long as it's not a major crime, and get away with it. That's when chicks eat up everything you say and hamstering away the bad or mean ones.

Edit: Grammar

Artemis_the_Free · 2016-01-11T15:48:31+00:00

I think it's rather stupid, and I don't put labels on myself. I don't even call myself MGTOW. I don't put labels on myself because once you're labeled, it's easy for people to put you in a box (metaphorically) and then basically disregard anything you say and/or do. "Oh, that's just so-and-so, he hates women and is bitter about his divorce." Really? Hmm, well, my ex wife did me a huge favor, as did the chick I was seeing after her. As did the first girl I was with after I took a year off from even talking to women.

Besides, all this alpha/beta/Zappa shit is relative, I think. You take the baddest Aussie football player currently in the league, time travel his ass back to 1998 and put him in my rifle squad of Marines, and he's going to get his lunch eaten. Myself, I am not an athlete, haven't bothered playing organized sports since 8th grade, and would rather punch a jock in the balls than listen to one speak. I don't have a huge social circle, and I have times when I won't use 3 words if 2 will do. BUT, for some reason I can't fathom, people seem to look to me to lead. At work, when I was in college, in social settings. And I LOOK like someone who uses his fists to solve social problems (lots of tats, facial structure/typical expression, the way I carry myself), even though I haven't been in a fight in almost 2 decades. I've been told on numerous occasions that I intimidate people. Which is funny, to me, because I'm generally pretty laid back and basically a jokester. In a room full of bikers or skinheads, I wouldn't stand out. In a room full of gangers or jocks, I'd probably either be getting in a fight or dead. And at a D&D convention, I'd be the King Nerd (yes, I was a gamer when I was younger).

So how do you categorize that? Simple: you don't.

Labels are for small, weak minds that can't be bothered to learn or think. They enable those weak minds to quickly categorize someone and end all thought.

RationalPessimistDK · 2016-01-11T16:19:58+00:00

I completely agree. I have never read a satisfactory definition of the "alpha/beta dichotomy". In some posts/videos/articles, it seems like the "alpha/beta dichotomy" is the same as the widely supported cad/dad dichotomy known from Evolutionary Psychology, while in others, it seems to be more related to the self-confidence, assertiveness, or maybe even douchebagness of the male.

Natsume21 · 2016-01-11T17:56:11+00:00

The concept of alpha and beta is all but relative, so a true definition is hard to suffice. But if you view life in terms of how you interact with others in many fields, you could view it as a game. And games, depending on whose playing them, are relative in what they perceive as winners and what are perceived as losers.

In American society in general, the winners are perceived as those with the most money, status, and in a male's case, the most women.

The thing is, there is no fact in life that says that a man's value is how much money he makes or how many women he bangs. So the concept of alpha and beta is all but socially based.

If you participate in the game, those terms can apply in relation to the guy next to you, which is what women in the dating game do all the time. This in itself is flawed because that essentially means a woman's affection, truly, are never forever. And most men WANT THAT FOREVER.

It's all apex fallacy, and apexes change.

So in many ways, the concept of alpha and beta seem necessary, but they are not only nonspecific, they only apply if you actually care about things like getting women and showing up other dudes.

If you go your own way, who cares about Alpha and Beta? All you care about is you.

oldredder · 2016-01-11T18:38:10+00:00

alpha & beta are evolutionary.

They cease to be valid when mammals are no longer a thing.

Until then that's how things really work.

make much sense anymore because there is no consistent definition of what an "alpha male" really is.

There is: just not on reddit. Reddit is filled with history-revision and dictionary-burning. Alpha and beta have never changed.

Alpha is the dominant, beta is the follower-crowd that obeys the alpha.

It's that simple always and forever with every mammal ever to live.

It's hard-wired instinct that can't be taught or erased.

Now when I read the comments to this video, most of them are praising the PUA for keeping his cool. They shower him with comments on his "alpha" behaviour and they belittle the chick's boyfriend by calling him a "beta-male" mangina.

This confuses the hell out of me because her boyfriend was nowhere close to being categorized as a "beta" male.

Ignore them. They are liars. The alpha male is always dominant, strong, defends his mate using lethal force if need be. That's the most key part of being alpha. Kill competing males. Beat them if that's smarter than killing. This PUA brainwashing nonsense re-defining what is alpha and beta MUST Be ignored. It is the precise opposite of fact.

If you compete for a woman or a resource and another man uses force to stop you, that is alpha. The more force, the more alpha. The more betas will follow and obey that alpha to make this happen, the more alpha it is.

That's how it works. The ONLY beta outcome is the man who's too weak to compete, fails to get the resource/woman, fails to even try to compete for a thing he really wants. In this case the PUA is the beta. He is unable to overpower the male and unable to convince the woman to go with him.

genethedog · 2016-01-12T03:19:49+00:00

Looking at men as either alpha or beta is useful for the PUA because you are seeing the word through a womans eyes.

For MGTOW, (looking at the world through a man's eyes) think of men as honorable/dishonorable.

I'm not going to bother breaking it down with examples but it pretty much goes like this.

Ask yourself:

Is what you're doing better for, not only you, but for the greater good (family, friends, community, society, the world/planet).
When I want something just for myself (which you deserve if you've been doing number 1 long enough), who recognizes that I deserve it and is willing to provide that for me?

Women and children are selfish and self-centred. Women only ask themselves those questions when it comes to them and their children. The world and the others in it are only useful if they provide more wealth, resources and fun for her and her kids.

Maverick_79 · 2016-01-12T14:23:04+00:00

Men love social hierarchies and labels/titles. It's just another divisive "pecking order" where one boosts ones own self by putting down another. And both terms rest upon the female as its foundation, which, funny enough, makes the female the REAL Alpha, if her mere existence is so important that getting her is seen as some kind of prime achievement. At the very least, I think it's pretty corny for some guy to go around calling himself an "Alpha".

precisionclear · 2016-01-13T07:23:39+00:00

Your absolutely right, OP First of all, the PUAs are like religious leaders preaching to their flock - nothing they say has to make NY sense, but more importantly - "Alpha" and "Beta" was a misunderstanding maid in the 70s when a researcher went to study wolf populations; such as most bullshit psychology at the time, he projected preconceived notions, then in the 90s returned with an apology to the public. Wolves (as virtually all predator mammals) live in a pack hierarchy with grandparents at the top, parents, then children. The ONLY TIME you get "rules by the strongest" is when the family is destroyed, such as roaming pack of stray dogs. If your a human striving to be the top "alpha" then its like trying to win the special Olympics - you get to be the 1st place retard.

RealBazou · 2016-01-15T07:44:59+00:00

You have only one true label: your name. Everything is is either in the eye of the beholder, or bullocks, so not worth caring about.

Title	Is the concept of Alpha vs Beta males outdated? Should we even be focusing on these labels when it comes to improving ourselves?
Author	BeautifulTurtle
Upvotes	17
Comments	30
Date	January 11, 2016 2:29 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/40gyy4/is_the_concept_of_alpha_vs_beta_males_outdated/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/is-the-concept-of-alpha-vs-beta-males-outdated.639086 https://theredarchive.com/post/639086

Comments